my negs are too contrasty - what to do?

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Negatives (B&W) are too contrasty. I have 100% black and 100% white, but my mid-tones are very very weak.

I'm shooting fomapan 200 and developing in CLayton F76+ for the times on the bottle - actually for the lower contrast times.

agitation for 10 seconds every minute (this might be where I'm going wrong)

I try 7 minutes at 75 degrees and 1+9. Too contrasty.

I try 9 minutes at 75 and 1+19. Too contrasty.

these are the box times.

THIS IMAGE IS NEOPAN ACros for the 1+9 dilution time of 5.5

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=34782&cat=500&ppuser=2147

this is the foma for the 1+19 :

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=33659&cat=500&ppuser=2147

what am I doing wrong?
 
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Actually, that negative has the full range. . . .is it hte film that can't handle its own highlights?
 
If your highlights are too dense you need to reduce developement. If the shadows are too thin increase exposure. Mid tones could be old film or developeer. The old rule is to expose for the shadows and develope for the highlights.

Some od this could be due to the spectral sensativity of the film. I think fomapan is the same emulsion as old super XX which had a fairly linear response to color. I shoot Bergerr 200 and find the mid tones to look different than other films. Super xx was used in the days of contineous tone seperation negs due to its more linear color response. I might be wrong about the Foma 200 being a remake of super xx but i think it is.


http://www.photo.net/photos/X-Ray
 
Too much development. Is that temperature right? Seems awfully hot. Also, agitation varies greatly - if you're really hammering it, that's too much. Agitation is g-e-n-t-l-e.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
well, the bottle does say 75 degrees. I think that is F. . . it must be or that would make for even warmer.

And my agitation is :

invert
tap for bubbles
twist the little agitation rod (twists the reel in the solution) for 5 seconds gently
back and forth.

I keep my development to within 10 seconds of the exact time on the box.

then I dump the developer and rinse under water quickly
then into the stopper it goes for 20 seconds
then rise with water
then fix for 4 minutes with similar agitation
then rinse
then rinse with the washing agent.

hang to dry

I guess I'll lower the temperature a few degrees or maybe use less agitation.
 
If that's the recommended temperature, then hey, I guess you have to trust it. Just seems warm to me, I'm used to developers that recommend 68 to 70 deg F - except for panthermic two-part developers where the temp doesn't matter much. Is it possible that you're cutting the concentration incorrectly? Math was never my strong suit, I had to get a calculator and figure out a 1+50 the first time I did Rodinal (I wanted 450 ml total solution).

The agitation you mentioned seems pretty good, not too much. But it sure sounds like overdevelopment somewhere. Solution too strong, temp too high, too much agitation - these are the common errors. I use Foma 200 myself, never had a problem with missing midtones.

I'm sorry I am not being more help!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks
 
I would say initially after pouring in the developer do a few inversions and then tap for bubbles, from then on just do twist agitaion for 5 seconds every minute. Ive always found that too much contrast can be solved by less agtitaion.
 
I'm with Bill. I'm hoping that the folks who make developers are testing them at standard temperture and pressure (e.g. 68 degrees F/20 C and sea level). I have never heard of a developer (particularly not a D-76-ish one . . . Clayton is D-76 with some magic Clayton pixie dust thrown in to give you some sort of enhancement) being used at that high a temp as a matter of routine. Typical development times for a hot developer like that would be in the range of 3-4 minutes -- too little to guarantee even development. Also, you can get swelling of the gelatin layer. Doesn't that sound nasty? My advice: Try a test roll at 68 for whatever the Big Dev Chart says is the right time for your film in D-76 . . .and go from there.

BTW, the links that you posted look like they have a decent range of tones. . . what are you shooting for here?
 
If I were you I'd first not use stop bath, just plain water. It's just not needed. Then I'd back off the develop time by 20% and reduce agitation to 5 seconds every minute. Do that and see what you have.
 
Benjamin Marks said:
I'm with Bill. I'm hoping that the folks who make developers are testing them at standard temperture and pressure (e.g. 68 degrees F/20 C and sea level). I have never heard of a developer (particularly not a D-76-ish one . . . Clayton is D-76 with some magic Clayton pixie dust thrown in to give you some sort of enhancement) being used at that high a temp as a matter of routine. Typical development times for a hot developer like that would be in the range of 3-4 minutes -- too little to guarantee even development. Also, you can get swelling of the gelatin layer. Doesn't that sound nasty? My advice: Try a test roll at 68 for whatever the Big Dev Chart says is the right time for your film in D-76 . . .and go from there.

BTW, the links that you posted look like they have a decent range of tones. . . what are you shooting for here?
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the bottle DOES say 68 for the same time as 75, but I just guessed 75 because other literature had mentioned it.

I will try out 68 degrees.

Going to buy another round of chemicals tonight.
 
honestly, the times from clayton have always struck me as a bit weird. The claim that you can use the same times for those two temperatures is absurd.

Freestyle photo's dev chart is pretty useful. They indicate _6_ minutes at _68_. You did 7 minutes at 75. That's a HUGE difference. This is 1+9.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/techtips_filmdev.php

I actually did the search based on arista.edu ultra II

allan
 
kaiyen said:
honestly, the times from clayton have always struck me as a bit weird. The claim that you can use the same times for those two temperatures is absurd.

Freestyle photo's dev chart is pretty useful. They indicate _6_ minutes at _68_. You did 7 minutes at 75. That's a HUGE difference. This is 1+9.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/techtips_filmdev.php

I actually did the search based on arista.edu ultra II

allan
Click to expand...


OK, went in to the PDF for the Arista.edu Ultra 200, and it actually says 68 degrees for 1+9 for 7.5 minutes using Arista Premium liquid film developer. Maybe that will do it.

I wish there were more documentation for this combination.
 
for the clayton chemicals and foma and forte films, freestyle photo is a great resource.

and f76 isn't just d76 with some special "pixie dust" - it's a phenidone-based developer that isn't really d76 at all. it's basically ddx.

allan
 
Clayton? Why buy it when D76 is readily available. Unless you want to play Rodinal Roulette I'd stick to Kodak's D76. And always at 68 degrees. Your development temperatures are so high that in order to save the day you'd have to reduce development time to compensate, in which case, as another poster has mentioned, you end up with an inadequate image.

And, yes, eliminate stop bath from your processing sequence. Use plain water wash between developer and fixer, and go easy on agitation - again as others have suggested.

Freestyle is a great resource. In the back of their catalog they include a pretty good developing chart. Choose D76 1:1 at 68 degrees. If you've got a film that isn't listed, call them and they'll clue you in.

rgards,

Ted
 
OK, less time.

Maybe I'll try one of those low contrast, super fine grain developers. Perceptol or something. With Neopan 400.
 
shutterflower said:
OK, less time.

Maybe I'll try one of those low contrast, super fine grain developers. Perceptol or something. With Neopan 400.
Click to expand...

Don't go changing developers until you've got this one down, or at least a better neg, with this film. Don't you want to solve the issue and see what this film can do with that developer you've already started with? It's the best way to build long-term B&W wisdom and the best way to learn. Jumping around just makes for jumbled memory, mixed results and frustration at inconsistencies. What will you do when and if you just jump to another developer and again get bad results? You'll be more confused than ever and be even farther from where you're trying to get to.
 
yes, I do.

You're right. I should fight this out for the good of my knowledge. I need it, obviously.

I will decrease agitation and play with other modifiers to lower contrast. I just need my highlights and mid tones back.
 
If you're over developing the film you should be able to perceive an increase in grain as well as contrast, do the negatives seem too grainy? Also these are both pretty contrasy scenes, not the best to gauge development. If it was me I would stick to a mainsteam developer and film they're popular for a reason
 
Toby said:
If you're over developing the film you should be able to perceive an increase in grain as well as contrast, do the negatives seem too grainy? Also these are both pretty contrasy scenes, not the best to gauge development. If it was me I would stick to a mainsteam developer and film they're popular for a reason
Click to expand...


D76 is where I may go next - but I intent to perfect this first, to get a handle on the process.

I think the Arista Chemicals are designed/chosen to be good for beginners - given their target market - so I'm where I need to be right now. I might play with the 100 and 400 Fomapans.
 
shutterflower said:
D76 is where I may go next - but I intent to perfect this first, to get a handle on the process.

I think the Arista Chemicals are designed/chosen to be good for beginners - given their target market - so I'm where I need to be right now. I might play with the 100 and 400 Fomapans.
Click to expand...

In the UK virtually every photography/darkroom course starts with HP5 or Tri-X and D76/ID11 diluted 1+1 this is the ideal starting point because the films are tolerent of poor processing and there is huge reservoir of experience for you to draw on if things go wrong. I've been into photography for over a decade and I've never seen a roll of fomapan in the flesh and I've never even heard of Arista chemicals, and I'm others who would like to help you would be the in the same boat. Stick to the more well known products and you'll find lots of examples of what you can get and you can compare this with own work, progress will be a lot quicker this way
 
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