Odd LTM Sonnar on eBay

dexdog

dexdog

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I saw this lens on eBay, it is kinda odd. Serial number is not consistent with Thiele's book, which shows this range of serials as 5cm/2.8 Tessars in M42 mount produced in 1951. That said, the name ring looks correct, and Thiele's book is not infallible. The focusing mount looks a lot like a WW2 era LTM Sonnar, although the dimensions look a bit different than the several that I have. This lens does not have the twin screws : on the focusing ring found on wartime lenses, although the lower one appears to be there. Whaddya think? My supposition would be that this lens was not made by CZJ after the war, but may be a one-off from or custom mounting. I am not interested in buying this, looks odd and has fungus issues
https://www.ebay.com/itm/20413507849...Bk9SR5jg-ruEYQ
 
Five_Sonnar_oneoffs.jpg Five_Postwar_Sonnars.jpg tran1.jpg

I've worked on several like the one in the auction. These are "transition lenses", also called Coburg Sonnars. Most likely built just after the war when everything was in disarray. Performance ranges from great to never worked in the first place.
 
Thanks, Brian. I have a couple of the transition versions with 285 serial numbers. BTW, that lens on the left in your pictures is really different looking, I don't think I have ever seen one like it.
 
dexdog said:
Thanks, Brian. I have a couple of the transition versions with 285 serial numbers. BTW, that lens on the left in your pictures is really different looking, I don't think I have ever seen one like it.
Click to expand...

Indeed very odd. It is one of those 5,8cm lenses? It's quite a bit longer than your standard 50 Sonnar, which makes me assume it's a longer focal length. Also has weird spacing in the serial number.
 
The lens on the left was marked 5cm, but is not. It was similar to the 5.8cm F1.5 in LTM that I worked on a couple of years ago.
 
Hello Brian, is or are there any LTM Sonnar 5cm / 50mm lenses that you would call official Zeiss made? I mean Zeiss made some LTM Sonnar lenses but I could not find a single reliable source stating this is the one and it looks like this.

If you ask me this is the official LTM Carl Zeiss Jena 5cm 1.5 version: https://www.ebay.de/itm/266085761003

I'm not sure if Zeiss Oberkochern was building official LTM versions. I just saw one LTM one on Ebay that looked authentic.
 
Rauber, the lens in the auction that you linked is legitimate, the 272 serial numbers were made in 1942 and 1943. The one in the auction was part of a batch of 3,000 that Zeiss completed on Jan 29, 1943, as per Thiele. The other bits of the lens look good too, such as the pair of two small screws arranged like a colon : on the focusing ring. I think the price is a bit high at 699 Euros, but only because I have not bought one in the last couple of years.
 
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Räuber said:
I noticed they used a small black line as selected aperture indication. There is a later one on Ebay that has a red dot instead where I'm not sure if it is authentic: https://www.ebay.de/itm/285071041111
Click to expand...

Small details like the aperture or focus indicator may change between batches. The 285xxxx batch is considered legitimate Zeiss, though things get a little murky at this late phase of the war. But I'd say both lenses you posted are legitimate.

I think the prices on ebay are quite high, there are optically equivalent (or very very similar) lenses at much cheaper prices, such as the Canon 50mm 1.5 ltm. The wartime Sonnars are only worth it if the glass is immaculate and the mechanics are solid. The construction of the lens and the materials, i.e. aluminium are not of the highest quality. The helicoid may be quite worn and loose. The prices are dictated by rarity / novelty, not because of their unmatched performance. In my opinion at least. But it's a great lens if you find one at an acceptable price (sub 500$).
 
Räuber said:
Hello Brian, is or are there any LTM Sonnar 5cm / 50mm lenses that you would call official Zeiss made? I mean Zeiss made some LTM Sonnar lenses but I could not find a single reliable source stating this is the one and it looks like this.

If you ask me this is the official LTM Carl Zeiss Jena 5cm 1.5 version: https://www.ebay.de/itm/266085761003

I'm not sure if Zeiss Oberkochern was building official LTM versions. I just saw one LTM one on Ebay that looked authentic.
Click to expand...
This one starts with 272, and is most likely an official Zeiss lens. Zeiss made the Sonnar 5cm F1.5 in Leica mount during the war. There are also Zeiss made Sonnars in the 285 batch.

Many of the 285xxxx and 272xxxx parts ended up being finished as ZK Sonnars and early Jupiter-3's. I have several in my collection. But not as many as Dexdog....
 
Räuber said:
I noticed they used a small black line as selected aperture indication. There is a later one on Ebay that has a red dot instead where I'm not sure if it is authentic: https://www.ebay.de/itm/285071041111
Click to expand...
This one looks like an "unofficial" Zeiss lens produced after the war. A "Coburg" lens, or a transition lens. Basically- the employees finishing lenses as best they can for sell or barter. On this one- notice the RF Cam is not finished, left in metal finish. I have one like this, have worked on many. The one I have: the middle triplet was not properly polished and had to be replaced. It is also in the 285xxxx batch.
 
Chris at Skyllaney uses the Coburg term, is more popular in Europe. I think of a little cottage with an ex-Zeiss employee cobbling together lenses. The lenses I've examined, a real one-off quality about them.

www.35mmc.com

Skyllaney-Restored Sonnars Reunited with Their Old Rangefinder Camera - By Phil Steelandt

Spring 2019. One of my friends (he runs an antique shop in Ghent, Belgium) sends me a picture of a Leica IIIc with a screw mounted Sonnar with the message, "Is this something for you? I' bought some furniture today and the guy wants to sell me his dad's camera too. Put a price on it and call me...
www.35mmc.com
 
Sonnar Brian said:
This one starts with 272, and is most likely an official Zeiss lens. Zeiss made the Sonnar 5cm F1.5 in Leica mount during the war. There are also Zeiss made Sonnars in the 285 batch.

Many of the 285xxxx and 272xxxx parts ended up being finished as ZK Sonnars and early Jupiter-3's. I have several in my collection. But not as many as Dexdog....
Click to expand...
There are a lot stories of wartime production Sonnars. For example that at the end of the war there where quite a high amount of fakes around so that Carl Zeiss Jena started to advertise that buyers only should buy authentic Zeiss lenses. They claimed that those fakes where not up to the quality standards of Zeiss. Those fakes might come from previous lens makers, craftsmen that where unemployed after the war. Think about it. Through the war a lot of people lost their homes and work. So what would you do if you worked for Zeiss, Steinheil, Meyer or some other lens manufacturers in the past and now you have to find a way of living in a destroyed city? There are stories that even Zeiss employees used the machines and material after work to build some private stuff.

I find it quite funny that some of the sweetest looking LTM Sonnar 5cm 1.5 lenses you can find featured in the net are not is listed in the Thiele Nummernbuch.


and even here


and this Ebay one


not listed in the Nummernbuch.
 
There is a difference "Fake" and irregular production. Most of the Sonnars shown are irregular production.

This one is a poor fake:
www.ebay.com

Lens SONNAR CARL ZEISS JENA 5CM F1:2 T 50MM F2, LEICA M39 LTM LENS | eBay

CARL ZEISS JENA SONNAR 5CM F1:2 T 50MM F2 LEICA M39 LTM LENS RABBIT EARS (copy ). The real focal length of this lens is 52.54mm. The lens is in good condition! Everything works fine. The glass is clean, all photos are real.
www.ebay.com

Do not bother reporting the auctions, I've tried. The seller are crooks.

www.ebay.com

Lens SONNAR Carl Zeiss Jena 5 CM F1:2 50mm F2 LEICA M39 LTM LENS | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Lens SONNAR Carl Zeiss Jena 5 CM F1:2 50mm F2 LEICA M39 LTM LENS at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com

www.ebay.com

Lens SONNAR Carl Zeiss Jena 5 CM F1:2 50mm F2 LEICA M39 LTM LENS | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Lens SONNAR Carl Zeiss Jena 5 CM F1:2 50mm F2 LEICA M39 LTM LENS at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com
 
Sonnar Brian said:
There is a difference "Fake" and irregular production. Most of the Sonnars shown are irregular production.

This one is a poor fake:
www.ebay.com

Lens SONNAR CARL ZEISS JENA 5CM F1:2 T 50MM F2, LEICA M39 LTM LENS | eBay

CARL ZEISS JENA SONNAR 5CM F1:2 T 50MM F2 LEICA M39 LTM LENS RABBIT EARS (copy ). The real focal length of this lens is 52.54mm. The lens is in good condition! Everything works fine. The glass is clean, all photos are real.
www.ebay.com

Do not bother reporting the auctions, I've tried. The seller are crooks.

www.ebay.com

Lens SONNAR Carl Zeiss Jena 5 CM F1:2 50mm F2 LEICA M39 LTM LENS | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Lens SONNAR Carl Zeiss Jena 5 CM F1:2 50mm F2 LEICA M39 LTM LENS at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com

www.ebay.com

Lens SONNAR Carl Zeiss Jena 5 CM F1:2 50mm F2 LEICA M39 LTM LENS | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Lens SONNAR Carl Zeiss Jena 5 CM F1:2 50mm F2 LEICA M39 LTM LENS at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com
Click to expand...

The advise that a big M as meter indicates Russian copies holds true in most cases. Zeiss uses a small m for the meter scale.

I think one big source of not authentic Zeiss Sonnar lenses are other Ebayers. :-D Some guys know how to disassemble and reassemble Sonnar and Jupiter lenses. Brian you know how it easy or difficult it is to create a new lens from 2 other lenses. Why would someone do this? Because one immaculate rare lens sells for more than a damaged one. I have seen some lenses that look out of place or like a Franken-Sonnar. For example a CZJ 5cm F1.5 type 3 black ring with an aperture ring that goes to F22 (should only be F11). Some people could come to the conclusion it would be a good idea to replace foggy, scratched and fungus ridden lenses with some donation glass from Jupiters. Luckily even Jupiters are expensive these days so nobody hopefully would do it for some 100 bugs extra.

Has someone seen a LTM CZ Oberkochern Sonnar? Did they manufacture some and how do they look? I have found this one
but I'm not sure about the engraving letters. It looks like home made. Than there is this one:
it resembles a little bit the Canon Sonnars but I think it is a different housing. There are not many LTM copies of CZ Oberkochern Sonnars on Ebay. And last... just for the records...
This is a CZJ Sonnar made after WWII but it looks more like a lens with an attached LTM adapter. I have seen some of them lately. I dunno where those are coming from.
 
Räuber said:
The advise that a big M as meter indicates Russian copies holds true in most cases. Zeiss uses a small m for the meter scale.

I think one big source of not authentic Zeiss Sonnar lenses are other Ebayers. :-D Some guys know how to disassemble and reassemble Sonnar and Jupiter lenses. Brian you know how it easy or difficult it is to create a new lens from 2 other lenses. Why would someone do this? Because one immaculate rare lens sells for more than a damaged one. I have seen some lenses that look out of place or like a Franken-Sonnar. For example a CZJ 5cm F1.5 type 3 black ring with an aperture ring that goes to F22 (should only be F11). Some people could come to the conclusion it would be a good idea to replace foggy, scratched and fungus ridden lenses with some donation glass from Jupiters. Luckily even Jupiters are expensive these days so nobody hopefully would do it for some 100 bugs extra.

Has someone seen a LTM CZ Oberkochern Sonnar? Did they manufacture some and how do they look? I have found this one
but I'm not sure about the engraving letters. It looks like home made. Than there is this one:
it resembles a little bit the Canon Sonnars but I think it is a different housing. There are not many LTM copies of CZ Oberkochern Sonnars on Ebay. And last... just for the records...
This is a CZJ Sonnar made after WWII but it looks more like a lens with an attached LTM adapter. I have seen some of them lately. I dunno where those are coming from.
Click to expand...
These all look like transplanted Barrels into focus mounts. The second one looks like a Summarit Focus Mount, the third one looks like A Summicron or Summitar focus mount. I've seen several conversions like this, but have not done one myself. I've done similar one-offs.
 
Sorry no LTM Sonnar but I found this interesting fellow:

www.ebay.de

【Ausgezeichnet+++++】Contax RF Carl Zeiss 50 mm f2 Sonnar aus Japan 256 | eBay

Entdecken Sie 【Ausgezeichnet+++++】Contax RF Carl Zeiss 50 mm f2 Sonnar aus Japan 256 in der großen Auswahl bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!
www.ebay.de

At first you might think it is only the lens block of a Contax RF Carl Zeiss Sonnar 50mm F2 from the late West German CZ Oberkochern production. But it looks odd. The front ring with the name on it is recessed and that does not match any CRF Sonnar. This looks more like a Robot Sonnar but unfortunately the aperture numbers don't match that of other Robot lenses.

To make matters worse the serial number is not in Nummerbuch III of Mr. Thiele. It is missing from the 14th batch. But it is not colliding with any batch because after batch 14 there is a hole in the list. The next batch of Tessars does start at a later serial number.

Does someone recognize what version of lens this is?
 
It's a late SN- I remember seeing one like this before in Contax mount. Had a separation issue like this one.

www.ebay.com

Late Model【Near MINT w/ Case】 Zeiss Ikon Contax IIa RF Sonnar 50mm f2 Lens JAPAN | eBay

■ Optics "Finder". The prism is deteriorated. Body : Near MINT (Late Model). Lens : MINT. Lens : 1986789. ■ Optics "Lens". Lens front cap. ■ Appearance.
www.ebay.com

I think it is the barrel from a late Carl Zeiss 50/2, similar to the one on auction with the camera.
 
I learned something new. CZO changed the design of the Carl Zeiss 50mm F2 (without T) with black filter ring a little bit very late. They used a recessed front name ring. I think the reason is that they started the production of the Robot Sonnar 50mm F2 that uses this kind of front ring.

You can find other (complete) CZO 50mm F2s like that:

www.ebay.de

ZEISS IKON Contax IIIa Entfernungsmesser Kamera Sonnar 1:2/50 beschichtetes Objektiv f=50mm gehüllt | eBay

Entdecken Sie ZEISS IKON Contax IIIa Entfernungsmesser Kamera Sonnar 1:2/50 beschichtetes Objektiv f=50mm gehüllt in der großen Auswahl bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!
www.ebay.de
www.ebay.de

CARL Zeiss SONNAR 50mm/2 na CONTAX | eBay

Entdecken Sie CARL Zeiss SONNAR 50mm/2 na CONTAX in der großen Auswahl bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!
www.ebay.de

As always Zeiss handled this design change not very clean and ordered. You can find this kind of lenses side by side with the previous black front ring design.
 
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