Online vs the local store,,,

Bill Pierce

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I recently got into a conversation with several photographers about buying online versus buying at the local camera store. The first topic that came up was service. Obviously, you’re not going to get a lot of user feedback and detailed information buying on the internet. When I first came to NYC, Gene Smith and Robert Mottar took me to Royaltone, a rather small store in the West 20’s. Ernst Haas was at the counter checking some of his color slides that Royaltone had just gotten back from Kodak. You got the feeling that this was a store with a rather knowledgable set of customers. In fact, it was THE store, as much camera club and camera college as retail outlet. Clerks and customers pooled information on what was working and what wasn’t for a group of photographers with pretty high standards. Royaltone is long gone, but there are other stores that provide user feedback along with the gear. FotoCare isn’t far from where Royaltone was in a neighborhood once called the “photo district.” They sell equipment; they rent equipment; they have a small auditorium where folks give presentations; they hang photo exhibitions on their walls. And, between the customers and the clerks, they are a hands on source of what works (and how it works) and what doesn’t work. Certainly, if there is a retail store near you, you should investigate it and see if it’s a good one.

The one other advantage that retail stores have over internet stores is a staff that you get to know, actual humans that can do things that aren’t on an internet check list. Once, when I was doing a story in Canada’s Northwest Territories, Royaltone had a specialty lens located, sent to a repair shop and modified to fit the camera bodies I was using and shipped to Canada. That involved three different organizations and a lot of time and effort. And they didn’t bill me until I got back. When the Leica M8 first came out, the first one I received was defective. Leitz would have insisted on shipping it to Germany for repair and it probably would not be returned for several months. I do not know how they did it, but FotoCare returned it and gave me another from their stock. It also turned out to be defective. They returned it and gave me a new one that worked and was the beginning of my taking digital seriously. Flesh and blood people work outside the barrel, and that is often very valuable

The second topic that came up was price. Like it or not, this is an important consideration. No doubt that the very high volume of online sales from some of the big folks at places like Amazon and B&H allow them to sell at a lower profit margin and still do well. However, don’t think that all on line stores are cheaper than your local store. It’s often not so; check it out. However, absorbing credit card charges and shipping charges can really hurt small stores and cut their profit margin when you are not buying “in person.” This seems to a big concern among merchants I’ve talked to. Picking up your goodies “in store” and paying by check don’t seem too heavy a price for feedback and information. It will help your store survive. (Paying for shipping and paying a monthly bill by check don’t seem too heavy a price when it’s necessary.)

All this presumes that there is a good store that is convenient to you. This isn’t always true. Internet sales are not only convenient, but, for some folks, an absolutely necessity and a blessing. That situation will increase as more conventional retail stores feel the internet pressure and close for good. While I think the personalized services a conventional retail camera store can provide are exceptionally valuable, I sometimes think I am looking at the last generation of such stores.

Your thoughts?
 
Such stores are already just about gone around here.

The last diverse, full service photography store within a 20 mile radius closed last October. Now going to a 'local' store worth shopping at means a 100 mile round trip drive to San Francisco at the least.
 
So right. One of the things I missed moving out of Chicago to the great north woods was camera stores. Real people. Last real store I got to visit was Blue Moon Camera in Portland Oregon, a 120 mile drive one way. Not a digital camera in sight but lots of film, paper and chemicals. Kind of a unique little place with a very friendly and knowledgeable staff. And, I could buy a couple of rolls of Minox 8X11 B&W film (I'll reload the cartridges many times) probably the only camera store in North America that sells this film. Otherwise, as you noted, I'm forced to deal with online retailers due to my location.
 
Like the camera store business model of selling goods, I worked in an industry that mirrors the changes that have gone on for quite sometime selling photography products. Since I have first hand knowledge, let me explain what has taken place in the hardware industry.

Here in Minneapolis, I was a sales rep for products sold to hardware and home center stores. We had ten home office accounts of chains located here that I would call on. Each home office were responsible for products carried in about 1000 stores. So I had potential, if I sold all home office folks, around 10000 stores to carry products from factories I represented.

Nine of the home office locations are gone, out of business. Since I worked on straight commission, I was getting squeezed out of a job.

The business model used by this industry didn't work anymore.

Fewer customers but the ones left are large and hold a big hammer over the vendors heads. How to deal with that scenario, the vendors consolidate to have a big hammer in dealing with the few large customers. The small ones wither and die.

For my last 15 years I switched into professional photography. And that industry has seen quite a few changes. There are still two camera stores here, hanging on I guess.

Who would ever thought Sears would be struggling and recently sold the Craftsman line of products to Stanley-Black & Decker.
 
Such stores are already just about gone around here.

The last diverse, full service photography store within a 20 mile radius closed last October. Now going to a 'local' store worth shopping at means a 100 mile round trip drive to San Francisco at the least.


Same here Godfrey, about a 120 mile round trip to Seattle and I'd rather take a beating than go any where on I-5. From Lynnwood to south of Olympia it's often just a 100 mile long parking lot. I take it when I have to go to Canada but I'm on the road by 5 AM and past Seattle by 6:20.
 
I have one local store. The prices for film, paper and chemicals, and new cameras and lenses, are the same as Amazon and B&H (price fixing?), so it is just a question of tax vs shipping. I buy locally when they have what I need. Unfortunately, they can't match the selection of online retailers, so they are not my sole source.
 
Just so happens the other evening I picked up a copy of Our State magazine which this month is dedicated to photography. Over the holidays I was gifted a Nicca 3-S that has had issues with the shutter capping. I had planned on sending the camera to Youxin Ye but looking through the issue it so happens there is a man named Ken Toda about 30 mins. from my home who repairs vintage camera's.

You just never know who might be living in your back yard. It will be nice to drive over to hand off my camera than to box & ship it off. Here is a link about him.

http://www.filmfotoforever.com/repairs/
 
I live in a small rural town in central Washington State, east of the Cascade Mountains. When I came here, 33 years ago, we had a small photography store here, but it is long gone. Now, I can go 120 miles east, to the excellent Camera Corral in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, or I can go about 200 miles west to Seattle. In fact, I can order online from Seattle.

I still haven't gone digital, but if I were to do so, I would definitely go to one of these stores to help me get started in digital photography. They could help me get a new camera set to function the way I want it, at least to start out, and I could gradually learn the rest from there.

- Murray
 
My local camera shop has been gone for probably 7 or 8 years now...they were in business for over 50 years..
There were a great group of guys working in there..all pros and great at their jobs..
I never imagined they would go put of business until the last year or so..when the writing was on the wall...
Boy do I miss em...an island of commonality among a plethora of nothingness...
A cell phone shop took their place...go figure..it went out of business too..
And..those guys were always gifting me stuff..I remember they just gave me a 3x4 Speed Graphic one day..they said..do you want it..? It was a whole kit..I said yes..and ..and thank you!
Amazon is a great way to shop these days..but..there is nothing like that shop anymore..the community of it..maybe 25 miles away in Hartford there is still a place or 2 left...maybe..
But I haven't checked in many years now..
 
Fortunately I live in a location where the availability of photo equipment and service is very much alive... The local mom & pop photo shop gets all my development and special print work (and they always show their appreciation)... the large camera chains are great for large ticket items, and the used camera shops are a gold mine of accessories and information. I only shop the internet when the product is not available locally or the local price is obscene (recently purchased a domestically made item that was 1/2 the price from the USA including delivery, which only took four days... but only after visiting the local service center to talk to one of the technicians).

A certain amount of my available financial reserves are managed in USD via a global payment system, which unfortunately is not widely used here and tends to work better with internet purchases... so that's a small factor.

As a side note: I tend to read e-books for convenience and lack of book shelf space... I have noticed that for an increasing number of books, the e-version is more expensive than the physical copy particularly if you are not buying a best seller... support your local library ; )
 
My nearest store is 45 miles away and are the only Leica dealer other than San Francisco. I took my M9 in to have the sensor cleaned and the clerk didn't even know what it was, I said it was a Leica, he thought it a film camera, he was holding it. So when it comes back a month and a week later after two phone calls, it was just as dirty as when I brought it in, they recleaned it and got it about 50% clean. Suffice to say I'll not be back. They are an interstate chain. Lots of bags and tripods and shelves full of cameras and lenses but no knowledge.
 
An interesting topic since I work at an independent camera store in my city.
We are the last of what was once many camera stores in the city.
There are other stores around, all about 20-30 miles away.
I have learned a lot about how the photo industry operates from working here.
Traditional small business photo stores have to adapt to the changing times.
Offering services and products that set you apart from the competition.

Most pricing is set by MAP, so a Nikon D810 is going to be the same price at our store vs BH Amazon ETC.
It can come down to sales tax vs shipping for some customers.
But most of the time customers value the time spent working on problem solving their issue or helping them with a purchase that sales tax isn't an issue when making a purchase.
And that person to person experience is something most people really enjoy.
 
I live near downtown Seattle and there are many camera stores within a 30 minute drive of me, however of those, one is full of really cantankerous old farts who are extremely rude and only want to sell you over priced filters and MAC warranties and their Yelp rating and reviews reflect that, one is full of people who dont know anything about the products they are selling but has background papers I constantly need, and one is full of higher end gear and are snobbish but have good selection of rentals. Another is quite nice but has an awful parking situation. No, I save my purchasing for online because if I want to ask questions then the internet is a good place to find answers, if I want someone to look down on me because I wont buy the $85 no name ProMaster filter then I go to a local store.

In fact just today I made a 300 dollar purchase for some needed gear, B&H not only had the best price, but free shipping and I didnt have to get the pitch for accessories I dont want.
 
Burlington Camera and Halton Camera Exchange those are two local stores for me in GTA who are better comparing on-line. I have cameras, lenses from them, advice, service and high quality prints.
 
I live within 30 miles of two college towns. Both communities have stores that stock some film, paper, and developer. One also has a decent selection of used cameras and lenses. I buy what I can from them, including new digital stuff for work. But they don't carry as much as they used to because the demand isn't there. When I need items they don't carry - Alford warmtone RC paper, metol, etc., then it's B&H. I don't get the advice and experience there, but when the package arrives, I can develop film and make prints.
 
Chicago had more stores than I could count. All but a few have gone. Even Calumet was sold, reopened, and then closed. I get online ads from them.

The real surprise was a small shop in Lyons that was well hidden and even I never never know about. They rented a space in La Grange and recently a smaller space down the street. But they are still open.

The big box is killing retail and internet is killing big box. Macys is closing 100 stores. The anchor stores in the malls are closing. The rest of the mall will surely follow. After all, if they can not fill the space, they need to raise rent and drive the smaller stores out.

I suggest you invest in UPS, Fed Express, or USPS or Amazon.

Central Camera survives because of a local college. Same with a store in Glen Ellyn.
 
Unfortunately there are no more camera stores (I mean the real ones), near me. I miss them. Sometimes just stopping by. Also I could not pull off the sometimes absurd levels of GAS that happens now with online stores. Anyway a time and space that is becoming part of my past.
 
"Picking up your goodies “in store” and paying by check don’t seem too heavy a price for feedback and information. It will help your store survive. (Paying for shipping and paying a monthly bill by check don’t seem too heavy a price when it’s necessary.)



Your thoughts?


I read your post with great interest and have thought much the same, with very mixed feelings. I have a very good local store I deal with on a regular basis, but admit I do a lot of research on-line prior to entering the store, as many of the young people working there are less than knowledgeable about the specifics of what I am looking for. In fairness, there is so much more to know today than 40 years ago. But as my grandson would say, "Dude, what's a check?" I haven't used a cheque in years. 😎



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Chicago had more stores than I could count. All but a few have gone. Even Calumet was sold, reopened, and then closed. I get online ads from them.

I lived in Chicago in the 70's and for a couple of years worked at Altman's, right up to the time Ralph sold out and closed the store. That was in May 75 and a very sad day. Even so, there were many other stores, Wolk's, Bass, and Shutan are some I remember. I got a job at a hole in the wall store called Camera Exchange on Dearborn St. They were owned by The Roston family who also owned Roscor who just closed up a about three years ago. There were so many camera stores in the Loop it could take half a day just to visit each one for 15 minutes or so. Plus lots of neighbor stores. So sad, all gone except for Central.

Altman's was fantastic. Ralph Altman just hated shyster NY dealers who employed all kinds of scams on unsuspecting customers. Bait and switch and stripping out included in the box items to sell separately were just the tip of the berg. Back, long before the internet they could get away with this crap a lot easier.
 
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