Bob Michaels
nobody special
Hopefully enough of you will add to this thread to send a message to the good Mr. K at Cosina Voigtlander about sloppy assembly.
I find the engineering and optical design of the Cosina Voigtlander lenses to be very good. Especially so with the Zeiss Ikon products. This is critical since there is no way this can be improved. But the damn bodies and lenses keep coming apart. The Zeiss lenses have a reputation now for the "wobble". There are many reports of the focusing becoming squeaky or rough. While I certainly don't profess to be knowledge about camera / lens manufacture, it appears this is just cutting corners in the actual assembly process. Camera techs tell me it is a simple matter of not tightening assemblies or applying proper grease, in the proper amount, in the proper places.
I use 2 ZI bodies. I have owned 3 ZI and 4 CV lenses. I use them. All have been great except half of them have been in the repair shop because they were coming apart or needed proper lubrication. All easy fixes for me since I have a nearby friend who owns a pro camera repair business. But now I am beginning to wonder each time I set off with one body and one lens.
I realize the Leica level of assembly is not possible at the ZI or CV price point. But I would happily pay $5-10 more to train / manage / QC the assembly line to properly tighten the screws or assemblies and properly apply the grease to helicoids. All to have equipment that not fall apart or develop problems in use. These products are just too good to suffer from sloppy assembly.
If you feel the same, please chime in. Hopefully this message will find it's way to Mr. K who can actually do something.
I find the engineering and optical design of the Cosina Voigtlander lenses to be very good. Especially so with the Zeiss Ikon products. This is critical since there is no way this can be improved. But the damn bodies and lenses keep coming apart. The Zeiss lenses have a reputation now for the "wobble". There are many reports of the focusing becoming squeaky or rough. While I certainly don't profess to be knowledge about camera / lens manufacture, it appears this is just cutting corners in the actual assembly process. Camera techs tell me it is a simple matter of not tightening assemblies or applying proper grease, in the proper amount, in the proper places.
I use 2 ZI bodies. I have owned 3 ZI and 4 CV lenses. I use them. All have been great except half of them have been in the repair shop because they were coming apart or needed proper lubrication. All easy fixes for me since I have a nearby friend who owns a pro camera repair business. But now I am beginning to wonder each time I set off with one body and one lens.
I realize the Leica level of assembly is not possible at the ZI or CV price point. But I would happily pay $5-10 more to train / manage / QC the assembly line to properly tighten the screws or assemblies and properly apply the grease to helicoids. All to have equipment that not fall apart or develop problems in use. These products are just too good to suffer from sloppy assembly.
If you feel the same, please chime in. Hopefully this message will find it's way to Mr. K who can actually do something.
Thardy
Veteran
I've heard of the 50 1.1 just coming apart. You might have to pay more than $10 for much better QC.
ruby.monkey
Veteran
I'd expect it to be perfectly well assembled already. It shouldn't cost extra to have the thing screwed together properly.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
I think the design is excellent. The precision of manufacturing the components does not appear to be an issue.
How much more can it cost to simply tighten the screws correctly? That and the crappy lubrication is all the problems I have seen in otherwise excellent products.
How much more can it cost to simply tighten the screws correctly? That and the crappy lubrication is all the problems I have seen in otherwise excellent products.
Chris101
summicronia
Yup. My 35 Ultron fell apart. Three very internal screws came loose from regular use. I put a dot of enamel on them and they've held tight ever since.
zauhar
Veteran
Bob, is this an issue with lenses manufactured more recently, or more an issue of hit-or-miss quality?
Randy
Randy
Bob Michaels
nobody special
Randy: I honestly don't know.
I do know that my ZI body, manufactured 4 years ago had the shutter speed / iso dial fall off. So did the rewind crank.
I had an excellent Zeiss 50mm Planar, some 3 years old develop a bind in the focus because of the poorly applied grease.
I have an excellent 40mm CV bought 8 months ago with very little signs of use develop a squeak in the focus helicoid because of poor lubrication.
I have an like new 75mm CV lens bought 4 months ago and used very little start to come apart today as I was showing it to a prospective purchaser.
All have been repaired (even today's problem as I was at the camera repair shop) but now I wonder what will come apart next.
It is a shame because these are great products other than falling apart of needing dis-assembly for correction of lubrication problems.
Rayt
Nonplayer Character
Ditto. I used to own quiet a few ZM and CV and most developed the wobble. I sold a CV lens here a few years ago and the buyer demanded a partial refund because of a slight wobble. I refunded him $100 out of a $250 transaction. A slight wobble won't affect image quality but I am kind of weary after that.
Bill58
Native Texan
That's exactly why I've limited myself to only one CV lens--a 21 because I can't afford the Canon 19. I would have bought the whole line instead of the more expensive, vintage Canon RF. I might say it's an unusual problem w/ most Japanese products.
Bill
Bill
nonot
Well-known
I have the cv 15/4.5 and on top of using it frequently I've also dropped it a couple times as well, the body and lens seem to be as sturdy as one could hope for. I'm sure the qc varies sample to sample, but maybe it has something to do with machining tolerances that you get from a mid-range product? Did CV change it's production at any point in recent history?
Bill58, what do you mean by "I might say it's an unusual problem w/ most Japanese products." ?
Bill58, what do you mean by "I might say it's an unusual problem w/ most Japanese products." ?
Bob,
I sell lot of Voigtlander lenses.
My Voigtlander Warranty repairs during the first year of ownership amount to less than one half percent of lens sales during the one year warranty period. I don't think that is such a bad repair record.
Stephen
Bill58
Native Texan
I thought it was clear, but maybe this will help. The build quality of most Japanese products is excellent.
nonot
Well-known
Ah, I read it as "It's an unusual problem afflicting most Japanese products." thanks for the clarification.
sebastel
coarse art umbrascriptor
the problems i know of typically develop after about 2 years. you'll hardly see them during the warranty period.
s.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
Stephen: I understand your comment. Yet my personal experience which is an almost 50% problem rate for 9 CV manufactured products and other problems here on RFF also says something.
Every one of my 9 CV manufactured products (2 ZI bodies, 3 ZI lenses, 4 CV lenses) were bought used, so they are excluded from your stats. If new, I certainly would have bought from you. Also some of them took more than one year to show the problem.
It is important to remember that the design is great. That is critical since it is something that can never be fixed if not good. It is just the damn things falling apart from loose screws / assemblies or poor lubrication that I see as the problem.
The ZI and CV products are very good and priced fairly. Otherwise, I would use something else. There is just this one problem.
presspass
filmshooter
I have had similar, but not as extensive problems. I have a 40 mm Nokton that unscrews itself about every month or so. Tightening it is no problem, but it shouldn't do that. Likewise the Zeiss 50 1.5 that squeaks loudly after it's focused a couple of times. Others, including a ZI camera I've had for four years, a 15 and a 21 CV, and the 21, 25, and 35 Zeiss lenses, have worked well.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
My 35 Ultron came apart while on vacation once. It started wobbling then all the aperture blades dropped out of their respective slots and just sat inside the lens. It was easy to fix but turned me off of CV products for a while. Too bad since that lens was outstanding.
I've been through two 15mm CV LTM lenses. The first one was black and I owned it for a few years without a single problem. The second one was the silver finish and it wobbled quite a bit.
My 21mm f/2.8 ZM developed a bit of a wobble. I was the second owner and had it for a bit over a year and loved that lens. It was wide enough that the wobble didn't affect any of the images but the focusing ring would sometimes squeak and one could tell it was loose in the mount.
My 75mm f/1.8 is a great lens so far and if it has any issues I'll swear off products by Cosina for good.
Phil Forrest
I've been through two 15mm CV LTM lenses. The first one was black and I owned it for a few years without a single problem. The second one was the silver finish and it wobbled quite a bit.
My 21mm f/2.8 ZM developed a bit of a wobble. I was the second owner and had it for a bit over a year and loved that lens. It was wide enough that the wobble didn't affect any of the images but the focusing ring would sometimes squeak and one could tell it was loose in the mount.
My 75mm f/1.8 is a great lens so far and if it has any issues I'll swear off products by Cosina for good.
Phil Forrest
Matus
Well-known
The amount of complains about the build quality seems high enough to have statistical weight (not that I would know the actual numbers, honestly), si I do not doubt the problem itself.
However - the question is - is it "just" a problem of low quality assembly and low QA in the production process, or are these actually weak places of the mechanical design.
If former is the case - that $10 or just say 2% of the netto price would be more than enough to have better trained workers who spend 2 or 3 minutes more during assembling the lens or body. If latter is the case, than most probably not.
I would love though to see some numbers (not a cheap study to get them I guess) - like how large fraction of VC products requires servicing after 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 years - relative to the sale volumes - and have these compared to Leica. I would be really curios what would come up.
However - the question is - is it "just" a problem of low quality assembly and low QA in the production process, or are these actually weak places of the mechanical design.
If former is the case - that $10 or just say 2% of the netto price would be more than enough to have better trained workers who spend 2 or 3 minutes more during assembling the lens or body. If latter is the case, than most probably not.
I would love though to see some numbers (not a cheap study to get them I guess) - like how large fraction of VC products requires servicing after 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 years - relative to the sale volumes - and have these compared to Leica. I would be really curios what would come up.
rogerzilla
Well-known
They're not actually cheap lenses compared to Canikon, which are just as good optically and much cheaper still for an equivalent focal length and maximum aperture. CV lenses, even the Voigtlander-branded ones, are only cheap compared to Leica.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
My assumption (guess?) that this is something in the assembly QC is based on the randomness of problems and when they occur.
I have a ZI 35mm f2.0 that has been flawless through heavy use for four years.
I had a ZI 50mm Planar that saw little use (not my favorite focal length) but developed a bad bind in the focus mechanism while it still looked almost new. Disassembly & regreasing the helicoid fixed the problem.
I have a CV 28mm f3.5 that has been flawless through many years of use.
I have a CV 75mm f2.5 that has unscrewed itself even though it looks like it came out of the box. One drop of thread lock compound fixed the problem.
I have a CV 40mm that had a grinding in the focus even though it looked like it was almost new.
I have a ZI body that both the rewind crank and shutter speed dial came loose.
I have another ZI body that has had no problems. It is a only a backup, so had not seen as much use.
Every problem has been repaired by my local camera repair guru and the equipment has been fine ever since.
So that is what leads me to believe the problem is just a simple one of not tightening screws or properly applying grease during assembly. And that is not expensive to fix, hence this thread and message to Mr. K.
Please understand it certainly is not my intent to disparage CV or Zeiss Ikon products. Currently almost everything M mount that I own fits into that category. And, I need to sometime sell 4 CV lenses that I do not use. I just want them to fix what I, and apparently others, view as an assembly / QC problem.