msbarnes
Well-known
Does anyone use an optical viewfinder?
I'm interested in trying out an M43. I'm not enthusiastic about EVFS or composing through the viewfinder. Well, I might make that compromise but does anyone use the optical viewfinder? I figured that this would be similar to RF shooting: focus, and compose.
I'm interested in trying out an M43. I'm not enthusiastic about EVFS or composing through the viewfinder. Well, I might make that compromise but does anyone use the optical viewfinder? I figured that this would be similar to RF shooting: focus, and compose.
Sejanus.Aelianus
Veteran
I use the 17mm finder on my E-P1. It's not in the same class as a Leica finder, more like the Cosina bright line finder I once tried for the 35mm lens on a Leica. It does the job but it doesn't enthuse me in the same way as the M3's finder, which I regard as the gold standard.
The 17mm finder seems to cover around 85% of the image area.
The 17mm finder seems to cover around 85% of the image area.
thegman
Veteran
Funny you should say that, I had a Voigtlander 15mm finder and optically I thought it was great. My current Leica 21mm finder is only "OK" I think. Never used a Zeiss one though. For me though, a Voigtlander finder is likely ideal.
ray*j*gun
Veteran
I have a 21mm CV bright-line finder and its stunning.
dasuess
Nikon Freak
I have an Oly EP-2 with both the VF-1 OVF and the VF-2 EVF. Since getting my EM-5 last summer, I only use the 17mm with the VF-1 on the EP-2. I love the combo for just wandering and shooting.
traveler_101
American abroad
It's hard to answer your question without knowing more about your photographic experience. But I gather the question has something to do with the idea that the E-P1 might be considered "the poor man's Leica."
I have used the Olympus VF-1 (the optical viewfinder) extensively on my E-P1 mostly with the Panasonic 20/1.7. The viewfinder is cheaply made (plastic) but is easy to use: lines up nicely with your eye and provides a good view with a clear brightline. Of course there is no parallax correction.
Can you use it on a M43? Yes, of course. You can even shut down the LCD screen and shoot with the finder alone (utilizing AF lenses set typically at f.8, aperture priority). Used that way it is exactly like the clip on viewfinders I use on my "Barnack" Leica IIIf (Barnack type Leitz cameras separate the RF--focusing--and viewfinder--framing--windows); the VF-1 is so much like other clip ons I have that I am using it right now on my other film rangefinder, a Bessa-T. Goes great with the 35mm/f.2.5 Color Skopar.
Back to m43: clearly using the optical VF is possible. However, I have been forced to admit over time that essentially M43s are screen-oriented cameras--more like a point and shoot than a rangefinder. You are drawn to the screen to make adjustments to exposure, white balance, ISO, etc. and then end up composing on the screen. Consequently, you use the optical viewfinder less than you might imagine (though it is great to have when bright light presents you from seeing the screen very well).
The new Olympus E-M5 is a bit different as it has a built in electronic viewfinder which provides you with all the information you can find on the screen. But then you are shooting through an electronic eye. It will also cost you a good piece of change.
Basically I use my m43 as it was intended, as a sophisticated point and shoot, and stick to my rangefinders when I want that kind of experience.
msbarnes
Well-known
Thanks.
I wasn't really trying to have anyone answer that question for me, just a share of experience.
I do not consider m43 as a substitute for a RF and certainly do not compare it with a Leica M. Just a different breed of a camera.
The reason why i asked is because I'm used to optical viewfinders but I like the form factor of M43. I wanted to integrate digital into my shooting simply because it is somewhat cheaper and I do not print all of my negatives. I feel that I should just shoot film with the negatives that I want to print, and digital with the rest. i choose m43 as my digital medium because they are small, have room to grow, and I'm inhereting two lenses. The only other camera that I would consider is the X100 but there are reasons why I prefer M43...
I wasn't really trying to have anyone answer that question for me, just a share of experience.
I do not consider m43 as a substitute for a RF and certainly do not compare it with a Leica M. Just a different breed of a camera.
The reason why i asked is because I'm used to optical viewfinders but I like the form factor of M43. I wanted to integrate digital into my shooting simply because it is somewhat cheaper and I do not print all of my negatives. I feel that I should just shoot film with the negatives that I want to print, and digital with the rest. i choose m43 as my digital medium because they are small, have room to grow, and I'm inhereting two lenses. The only other camera that I would consider is the X100 but there are reasons why I prefer M43...
twopointeight
Well-known
GF-1 with 20mm 1.7 and Voigtlander 40mm finder is pretty close. I use multiple focus point mode (whatever its called) and it hit focus where I want it about 80-90% of the time. I've been think of getting the 28mm finder for the 14mm 2.8 lens which should work even better. Maybe an upgrade to the G1X (GX1?) and gain a stop of high iso. p.s. I set the format to 1:1.5, normal 35mm and the same angle of view as the finder.
traveler_101
American abroad
Sure. Well then you might be happy shooting a 20/1.7 with a E-P1 or GF-1 equipped with a Olympus or Voigtlander viewfinder--or doing the same with one of the new cameras with the better sensor--better dynamic range and much higher usable ISO.
justins7
Well-known
I use the fantastic 28mm Voigtlander brightline finder with my Panasonic GF1 and 14 2.5 lens (28 equiv.). It's a great combo, since I absolutely hate composting with the screen. I want only the live image in the finder, not numbers, dates, and technical nonsense. Just the essentials.
I do find it frustrating that it is difficult to know exactly where the camera is focusing. Ideally I would use a fast wide lens with real apertures and a focusing ring, which would allow me to set these things in action, so I don't have to rely on menus or a robot brain. But there is no such (affordable) lens yet.
I wind up using both the find and the screen sometimes.
I do find it frustrating that it is difficult to know exactly where the camera is focusing. Ideally I would use a fast wide lens with real apertures and a focusing ring, which would allow me to set these things in action, so I don't have to rely on menus or a robot brain. But there is no such (affordable) lens yet.
I wind up using both the find and the screen sometimes.
Dogman
Veteran
I use a Leitz 5cm finder on an E-P2 with the Olympus 25/2.8 plus M43 adapter. I also use the 17mm Olympus finder with the 17/2.8 Olympus lens on an E-P1. In addition have the Olympus EVF that I use on a second E-P2.
I vastly prefer the OVFs. The EVF is necessary when using the 14-42 zoom or with various lenses adapted to the M43 system. But I've come to dislike EVFs in general although I begrudgingly accept their versatility and necessity with some lenses. I never use the LCD in actual picture-taking.
Using OVFs with the E-Pen bodies works well for me but that doesn't mean they will work well for others.
I vastly prefer the OVFs. The EVF is necessary when using the 14-42 zoom or with various lenses adapted to the M43 system. But I've come to dislike EVFs in general although I begrudgingly accept their versatility and necessity with some lenses. I never use the LCD in actual picture-taking.
Using OVFs with the E-Pen bodies works well for me but that doesn't mean they will work well for others.
laptoprob
back to basics
I have the 14/2,5 with a Sigma 28mm finder almost exclusively on the GF1. Very small, very convenient. Usually the AF works fine. The separate EVF is handy when changing lenses more often, but not good enough for focussing manually. So I got a G1 to do that.
Alfasud
Old Toys
Voigtlander Kontur Finder
Voigtlander Kontur Finder
These viewfinders work well with my Pentax Q, with the 8.5mm lens (approx 48mm 135). The 'both eyes open' Kontur is especially good for moving subjects.
Voigtlander Kontur Finder
These viewfinders work well with my Pentax Q, with the 8.5mm lens (approx 48mm 135). The 'both eyes open' Kontur is especially good for moving subjects.
peterm1
Veteran
I recently picked up a Lumix GF1 at a good price and while I like it very much - it strikes me as the best of this crop of M4/3 cameras, like all small cameras without an inbuilt VF - I found that composing (or worse yet, focussing when using a legacy lens) can be very near impossible when using the LCD in bright sunlight.
I tried taking photos in the sun on a yacht on the weekend and had to guess composition as the LCD was effectively blank because of reflections. This is a common problem and I dislike this aspect of small camera shooting.
Fortunately I have a collection of older optical finders of various sorts (fixed focal length and variable) that I used with my Leica M and LTM cameras and tried a couple of those in a quick trial the other evening.
With a 28mm lens (leica M mount and adapter) on an M4/3 camera the field of view is close enough to a "standard" 50mm lens so I tried a Voightlander "Turnit" finder that was originally built for a Voightlander Prominent rangefinder of the 1950s. Although it has a bulky rectangular design it has good optics as well as a range of focal lengths - 35mm/50mm/100mm. The 100mm should work well with a 50mm lens on the M4/3 just as the 50mm works pretty well with the 28mm lens I was using . Another finder I have is the 75mm finder (came with the Voigtlander 75mm f1.8) which should be good for a 35mm lens on the m4/3.
I thought it worked well. The main hitch was that it sat quite loosely in the hot shoe and could not be left there permanently for fear of it dropping out. I suppose I could shim it with a piece of paper / plastic or some such........At the other end of the spectrum, another finder I tried was too tight and could not be used for the opposite reason - once on I would never get it off. I find this is common with many old accessory finders - they seem not to be wholly standardised to the size of the hotshoe / accessory shoe and vary enough to require some tweaking. Modern ones are a better as they are more standardised in this respect, but are more expensive option.
I have a couple of old generic brand bright line finders that I may also try next weekend. I did have time to try one of these but its optics were old and degraded so looking through it was nearly as bad as looking at the LCD in bright light. This is another potential issue with old finders.
If you are using a range of lenses on the camera, possibly the best old finder to use (assuming it foot fits the shoe on your camera - I have not tried) is a variable finder with focal lengths from 28 - 200 by a German company named TEWE. These come up on eBay from time to time at various prices. Without something like this you need to buy individual finders to match each len's focal length.
http://www.rockycameras.com/accesso...l-length-frame-finder--nice--2499-19157-p.asp
Turret finders also work but these sit high above the lens and parallax can be a problem - and they look odd.
http://fedka.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=331
My conclusion is that optical finders work well on digital cameras if the optics are clear (although not solving the manual focussing issue, only the composition issue ) so long as you can find one that is of suitable field of view and also remember to allow for parallax if shooting at a close subject.
I know you say that you do not want an electronic VF but they have come down in price if you hunt around (I can get one for the Lumix at around $130 plus shipping.) If you do not have any accessory finders like me, and have to buy several to match various lenses at the end of the day this may be cheaper and could still be worth considering notwithstanding your objections to them.
I tried taking photos in the sun on a yacht on the weekend and had to guess composition as the LCD was effectively blank because of reflections. This is a common problem and I dislike this aspect of small camera shooting.
Fortunately I have a collection of older optical finders of various sorts (fixed focal length and variable) that I used with my Leica M and LTM cameras and tried a couple of those in a quick trial the other evening.
With a 28mm lens (leica M mount and adapter) on an M4/3 camera the field of view is close enough to a "standard" 50mm lens so I tried a Voightlander "Turnit" finder that was originally built for a Voightlander Prominent rangefinder of the 1950s. Although it has a bulky rectangular design it has good optics as well as a range of focal lengths - 35mm/50mm/100mm. The 100mm should work well with a 50mm lens on the M4/3 just as the 50mm works pretty well with the 28mm lens I was using . Another finder I have is the 75mm finder (came with the Voigtlander 75mm f1.8) which should be good for a 35mm lens on the m4/3.
I thought it worked well. The main hitch was that it sat quite loosely in the hot shoe and could not be left there permanently for fear of it dropping out. I suppose I could shim it with a piece of paper / plastic or some such........At the other end of the spectrum, another finder I tried was too tight and could not be used for the opposite reason - once on I would never get it off. I find this is common with many old accessory finders - they seem not to be wholly standardised to the size of the hotshoe / accessory shoe and vary enough to require some tweaking. Modern ones are a better as they are more standardised in this respect, but are more expensive option.
I have a couple of old generic brand bright line finders that I may also try next weekend. I did have time to try one of these but its optics were old and degraded so looking through it was nearly as bad as looking at the LCD in bright light. This is another potential issue with old finders.
If you are using a range of lenses on the camera, possibly the best old finder to use (assuming it foot fits the shoe on your camera - I have not tried) is a variable finder with focal lengths from 28 - 200 by a German company named TEWE. These come up on eBay from time to time at various prices. Without something like this you need to buy individual finders to match each len's focal length.
http://www.rockycameras.com/accesso...l-length-frame-finder--nice--2499-19157-p.asp
Turret finders also work but these sit high above the lens and parallax can be a problem - and they look odd.
http://fedka.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=331
My conclusion is that optical finders work well on digital cameras if the optics are clear (although not solving the manual focussing issue, only the composition issue ) so long as you can find one that is of suitable field of view and also remember to allow for parallax if shooting at a close subject.
I know you say that you do not want an electronic VF but they have come down in price if you hunt around (I can get one for the Lumix at around $130 plus shipping.) If you do not have any accessory finders like me, and have to buy several to match various lenses at the end of the day this may be cheaper and could still be worth considering notwithstanding your objections to them.
Autoluminescent
Member
Hello,
Don't wish to muscle in on this thread, but was wondering how using OVFs on these things worked out with the touch screens? Presumably the EVFs can communicate with the camera to tell it that your nose doesn't want to change the focus point, but an old OVF doesn't speak the M43 language...
I ended up in M43 almost by accident when I bought my GF3 (with a 14mm f2.5 on it for less than the price of that lens on its own, when the local camera shop was trying to make way for the GF5) and although I've been hugely impressed by the system, the lack of even a viewfinder option on this body annoys me, hence I was considering getting something else - maybe just a used Oly E-PM1 or Panny GF2. Didn't want to put the cash down before knowing more about how this all works though..
Cheers
Don't wish to muscle in on this thread, but was wondering how using OVFs on these things worked out with the touch screens? Presumably the EVFs can communicate with the camera to tell it that your nose doesn't want to change the focus point, but an old OVF doesn't speak the M43 language...
I ended up in M43 almost by accident when I bought my GF3 (with a 14mm f2.5 on it for less than the price of that lens on its own, when the local camera shop was trying to make way for the GF5) and although I've been hugely impressed by the system, the lack of even a viewfinder option on this body annoys me, hence I was considering getting something else - maybe just a used Oly E-PM1 or Panny GF2. Didn't want to put the cash down before knowing more about how this all works though..
Cheers
traveler_101
American abroad
Hi
The ocular finder is just for framing. In terms of other kinds of information you are shooting blind, until you glance at the LCD screen. If you are determined to use ocular finder(s), it is possible to do. In regards focusing, there are three options: (1) first you must customize the camera settings: (a) set AF for center point focus; (b) separate AF function from the exposure button, and assign it to the AEL/AFL button. Bring the camera to your eye, center the viewfinder on the object you want to be in focus, hit the AEL/AFL button, hear the beep and you have critical focus; then without dropping the camera from your eye you can reframe the shot and hit the exposure button without affecting previously achieved focus; of course without a crosshairs in the ocular finder and without parallax correction, you are guessing a bit as to where the lens's center actually is; option (2) is to customize the camera as above; shoot in aperture priority with either the 20/1.7 or 17/2.8 lens and set the aperture to f.8; hold the camera high above your head pointing directly down to the ground; hit the AEL/AFL button and achieve hyper-focus mode; now you can just shoot without worrying: most everything from 2 meters to infinity will be in focus; option (3): you keep AF to multi-point focus mode, bring the camera to your eye and frame the shot; now you have a point-and shoot: half-depress the exposure button and after the beep you are in business; you take your chances with critical focus (see twopointeight's post above; he says he has a better than 90% hit rate).
The other option is to buy a EVF which gives you all the information you have on the back screen. I haven't used it, but it is described by some as looking at the world as if it were on a television screen; it is far more encompassing than the LCD screen, which gives your eye the advantage of seeing both the screen and the world at the same time.
p.s. These comments are based on my experience with an Olympus E-P1. I would assume that other m43 cameras can also be customized.