Pre-War Zeiss 85/2 Sonnar vs. Post-War 85 Sonnar vs. Jupiter 9

Larry Cloetta

Larry Cloetta

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This is more of a question to members than it is about one lens versus another.
Usually when you hear people comparing the pre-war 85 f/2 Contax Sonnar lens to the post-war West German Opton 85 f/2 version, the only difference they mention is that the pre-war versions were uncoated and the post-war Opton versions were coated, and differences in rendering are solely attributed to that, and that alone.
Then, if the Carl Zeiss Jena (Russian sector) post war lenses enter the discussion, it is usually claimed that "the barrels were different, and they were coated, but optically they were the same as the pre-war versions."

Then considering the Jupiter 9, it seems that they are usually considered to just be Soviet versions of the pre-war 85 Sonnar, but coated, so, provided you get a good one should render like a post-war West German Opton Sonnar. Or so the thinking seems to go.

I am just wondering if any of this is actually correct, reason being that the pre-war Sonnar and the post war Oberkochen Opton Sonnar were different lens designs, pre-war being 6 elements in 3 groups and the post war West German being 7 elements in 3 groups. So there was more than just coating differences.



And then, if the following diagram is correct, the Jupiter 9 is actually a copy of the 1951 West German Opton Sonnar, being 7 elements in 3 groups, and not a copy of the pre-war Sonnar, (and the 1946-on Jena Sonnar, presumably) (?) This seems to not make sense, that it would be a copy of the Opton Sonnar. (Since it was made in 1948, 3 years before the Opton Sonnar was designed.)



I guess my question is, to the extent I have one, am I the only one who thought that there were only coating differences between these lenses?
Or should I just go back to wrapping Christmas presents and stop thinking about it?
 
There is a difference in glass as well, which may have lead to the recomputation. West German Zeiss had access to the latest glass from Schott. The Russians seemed to have used a lot of leaded glass to make their lenses. Even though the Jupiter 9 has an aluminum barrel, it is a heavy monster.

As the refractive indices of the glass change, so does the lens have to be recomputed for each batch.
 
So......nobody? The all knowing internet repeatedly says that the Jupiter 9, which was introduced in 1948, is a 7 element 3 group Soviet copy of the West German Zeiss Oberkochen 85 Sonnar which was the new design recomputed by Bertele himself in 1951, everybody is good with that? Soviets copied a lens from the future? Time travel?

I'm just wondering what part of this common received wisdom is wrong, as the different designs do render scenes differently, and it would be nice to know what one was actually using.
Realizing this is an arcane point, but everything worth knowing is thought to be arcane by someone.

Jupiter 9 available in 1948:
http://www.sovietcams.com/index.php?-1898658725

http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Jupiter-9


Design supposedly used for Jupiter 9 comes into existence (Bertele, Zeiss Oberkochen) in 1951:
https://translate.google.com/transl.../las-reflex-de-zeiss-el-sistema-contarex.html

The question here for some might be, "I've got an 85/2 Sonnar rf lens from, say 1948-1951, either West German, East German, or Russian, what is it, exactly?"
 
The Sonnar 85mm f2 was re-designed from 6 elements to 7 elements in January of 1939. Both the East and West German Zeiss 85mm f2 Sonnars were 7 element lenses. (Source: L Gubas "Zeiss and Photography" p 698)

Additionally VEB Carl Zeiss Jena's booklet "Photo-Objective" of Feb 1949 shows an 85mm f2 Sonnar in a Contax mount and the schematic is a 7 element 3 group 1-3-3 design.

Bill
 
Don't know about the differences in optical design but I do know this: the PT7005 and PT7010 are surely built from parts that Zeiss made for Leica mount Sonnar lenses, since they close focus at 1.8 meters and have Zeiss-similar engravings. Once the 1.15 meters model was released (which had a helicoid that was based on the Contax pitch), the lens likely was redesigned.

http://www.sovietcams.com/index.php?-1992505399


Yet, I have a lens coming that is clearly PT7025 (and made in 1952), but still close focuses at 1.8 meters so it's to be assumed the Russians were finishing off remaining Zeiss supplies after they re-computed their Jupiter-9 to Contax pitch and 1.15 meters close focusing... Maybe these Leica-capable lenses were manufactured on demand until supplies ran out...?
 
Bill Jones said:
The Sonnar 85mm f2 was re-designed from 6 elements to 7 elements in January of 1939. Both the East and West German Zeiss 85mm f2 Sonnars were 7 element lenses. (Source: L Gubas "Zeiss and Photography" p 698)

Additionally VEB Carl Zeiss Jena's booklet "Photo-Objective" of Feb 1949 shows an 85mm f2 Sonnar in a Contax mount and the schematic is a 7 element 3 group 1-3-3 design.

Bill
Click to expand...

Thank you for that. It conflicts with some of the internet information, but I would rather trust a book, especially since this explanation does seem to take care of all the loose ends. Thanks.
 
Larry Cloetta said:
Thank you for that. It conflicts with some of the internet information, but I would rather trust a book, especially since this explanation does seem to take care of all the loose ends. Thanks.
Click to expand...

I don’t even trust what I’ve written on the internet!
 
Larry Cloetta said:
Thank you for that. It conflicts with some of the internet information, but I would rather trust a book, especially since this explanation does seem to take care of all the loose ends. Thanks.
Click to expand...

And Larry Gubas's book is excellent, so far nobody has found an error in it afaik. I only wish he'd used a different typeface, it's kind of hard to read for me...
 
I have read somewhere, that early 85/2 Sonnar was designed with 6 elements, which later was changed to 7 elements. Jupiter 9 was a continuation of late Jena Sonnar, so also 7 elements. West German Sonnars were redesigned, and are of 5 element design.

P.S. West German Lenses were of 7 element design.
 
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The Sonnar 85mm f2 by Carl Zeiss forth the Contax and Contarex cameras was always a seven element design. (Ref: Contax IIa by Zeiss Ikon 003-403-2 7,5 0851 and ZEISS Objectives by CARL ZEISS Oberkochen W III/63 Uoo)

Bill
 
Bill Jones said:
The Sonnar 85mm f2 by Carl Zeiss forth the Contax and Contarex cameras was always a seven element design. (Ref: Contax IIa by Zeiss Ikon 003-403-2 7,5 0851 and ZEISS Objectives by CARL ZEISS Oberkochen W III/63 Uoo)

Bill
Click to expand...

Always, if not counting the original Pre-war 6 element version. I don't have the references cited to look at, but am assuming they were talking about post war versions.
 
Larry Cloetta said:
Always, if not counting the original Pre-war 6 element version. I don't have the references cited to look at, but am assuming they were talking about post war versions.
Click to expand...

The lenses I'm talking about are the late pre-war, wartime and post war version from all three Zeiss names and the Sonnars made in the USSR.

The design change was documented in the post war and also shown in the guide books (The Contax Way by H Freytag and Das Contax Buch by O Croy.)

I, for one, knew of this difference in the 1960's.

Bill
 
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Larry Cloetta said:
A reference for this would be interesting as one of the few things which has always seemed clear on this topic is that the Post War west German Sonnars were 7 elements.
Click to expand...

Larry,
I apologize for my previous statement. It was a misinformation. 85/2 Sonnar Opton had 7 elements. I stand corrected.
 
After 1935 military and export lenses where coated. In a 1947 prospect Zeiss offerd after coating on old lenses as well as flash sync build in.
 
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