schrackman
Established
I plan on shooting a roll of Ilford FP4+ 125 and having it developed in Rodinol at a lab. I read where shooting this film at an ASA of 80 is preferrable when using this combination of film and developer in order to maintain good shadow detail.
My question is, with this ASA setting am I supposed to expose the shot normally or am I supposed to compensate for changing the ASA? And, am I supposed to have the film developed normally or ?
I am relatively new to film (but not digital), and whatever film I've shot has been normally exposed and processed. I don't know all the tricks that you guys are keen to when it comes to film and developing, so that's why I'm asking in reference to the above. Thanks in advance for any help!
Ray
My question is, with this ASA setting am I supposed to expose the shot normally or am I supposed to compensate for changing the ASA? And, am I supposed to have the film developed normally or ?
I am relatively new to film (but not digital), and whatever film I've shot has been normally exposed and processed. I don't know all the tricks that you guys are keen to when it comes to film and developing, so that's why I'm asking in reference to the above. Thanks in advance for any help!
Ray
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sepiareverb
genius and moron
Haven't tried this combo, but generally:
If you're shifting the ISO then pretend this is what the film is supposed to be shot at. Your developing time will/should take this into account.
The idea of lowering the ISO is to give more exposure to the shadows then develop a bit less aggressively to prevent the 'overexposed' highlights to block up. In essence you are lowering the contrast of the negative, gaining good shadow detail without sacrificing the highlight detail.
On your first roll I would suggest a quick test that is pretty easy, and will demonstrate what your options are. Set your ISO to 80. When you come across an image that has a wide range of tones make a second negative at ISO64, and a third at ISO125. If you have several images to do this with all the better. Your proofsheet will tell the story. (I find it easier to make the adjustment the same way each time- ie: first the 80, then the 64, then the 125- this way I'm not confused as to what I've done if the altered exposures are not simple to discern.)
If you're shifting the ISO then pretend this is what the film is supposed to be shot at. Your developing time will/should take this into account.
The idea of lowering the ISO is to give more exposure to the shadows then develop a bit less aggressively to prevent the 'overexposed' highlights to block up. In essence you are lowering the contrast of the negative, gaining good shadow detail without sacrificing the highlight detail.
On your first roll I would suggest a quick test that is pretty easy, and will demonstrate what your options are. Set your ISO to 80. When you come across an image that has a wide range of tones make a second negative at ISO64, and a third at ISO125. If you have several images to do this with all the better. Your proofsheet will tell the story. (I find it easier to make the adjustment the same way each time- ie: first the 80, then the 64, then the 125- this way I'm not confused as to what I've done if the altered exposures are not simple to discern.)
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schrackman
Established
Thanks for the info, sepiareverb. I'm gonna give that a try on the first photo. Quick question:
I don't process my own film but take it to a lab for developing (though I plan on taking a course on film development this Fall), so should I tell the lab to rate the film at ISO 80 when developing?
Ray
sepiareverb said:
I don't process my own film but take it to a lab for developing (though I plan on taking a course on film development this Fall), so should I tell the lab to rate the film at ISO 80 when developing?
Ray
Bryce
Well-known
This is my film/ developer combination of choice, I've been shooting it almost exclusively for several years now.
You will definitely want to expose the film more than the box speed- it just isn't that fast, at least not in Rodinal. I expose at 64, or even 32 if there are deep shadows I want to preserve. Otherwise, you'll end up with 'data free' areas in your prints.
Next is the developing sequence- The instructions that come with your bottle of Rodinal are ridiculous- they will yield absolutely unprintable highlights.
Here's what I do- For 1:50, at 70 degrees F., develop for 7 minutes. Agitate for the first 30 seconds, then 2 inversions every other minute.
For 1:100, same but develop for 10 minutes.
These directions work well for me, but also consider- I use a condenser type enlarger and paper with a reduced range of contrast control (still getting by on leftover Forte). So for a diffusion type enlarger or scanning you could probably develop longer without unuseable contrast.
If you like what you get, but want a little finer but still razor sharp grain, try adding half the amount of borax and sodium ascorbate as recomended in Patrick Gainer's article, "Appreciating Rodinal". You'll also have to shorten your develop times by about 20 pervcent as the additions speed development.
The difference is pretty subtle, and I wouldn't bother until you've got a routine you're really happy with already. In other words, I don't recomend running all over town for borax and ascorbate just yet.
Hope this is helpful!
You will definitely want to expose the film more than the box speed- it just isn't that fast, at least not in Rodinal. I expose at 64, or even 32 if there are deep shadows I want to preserve. Otherwise, you'll end up with 'data free' areas in your prints.
Next is the developing sequence- The instructions that come with your bottle of Rodinal are ridiculous- they will yield absolutely unprintable highlights.
Here's what I do- For 1:50, at 70 degrees F., develop for 7 minutes. Agitate for the first 30 seconds, then 2 inversions every other minute.
For 1:100, same but develop for 10 minutes.
These directions work well for me, but also consider- I use a condenser type enlarger and paper with a reduced range of contrast control (still getting by on leftover Forte). So for a diffusion type enlarger or scanning you could probably develop longer without unuseable contrast.
If you like what you get, but want a little finer but still razor sharp grain, try adding half the amount of borax and sodium ascorbate as recomended in Patrick Gainer's article, "Appreciating Rodinal". You'll also have to shorten your develop times by about 20 pervcent as the additions speed development.
The difference is pretty subtle, and I wouldn't bother until you've got a routine you're really happy with already. In other words, I don't recomend running all over town for borax and ascorbate just yet.
Hope this is helpful!
Bryce
Well-known
I wouldn't bother telling the lab you'd 'overexposed' the film. Really, you didn't since at least in Rodinal ISO 125 would represent a push. And that on a film that pushes very poorly in Rodinal.
40oz
...
I think the idea is to set your camera/meter to 80 and shoot away, and let it get developed as if shot at 125.
If you aren't doing it youself, there is all kinds of miscommunication possible, so just hand it over and act like nothing. See what you get. What you could do is ask the lab what they see best results with. If they use Rodinal a lot, they probably have some recommendations. It is their reputation, after all. They might have a process worked out for FP4, or they might not. It's worth asking.
I don't use Rodinal, so I can't say, but typically when someone says "shoot it at XX speed," they mean shoot it at XX speed and develop it at box speed. Otherwise they'd say "pull it to XX speed."
A lot of B&W films tolerate over-exposure quite well. Going from 125 to 80 will usually give you slightly more detail in the shadows but push the lighter tones slightly closer to white. Not a bad thing, for the most part. You're talking about less than a stop, well within the range of most films. If it's noticeable, it's the difference between a nice shot and one that looks great.
If you aren't doing it youself, there is all kinds of miscommunication possible, so just hand it over and act like nothing. See what you get. What you could do is ask the lab what they see best results with. If they use Rodinal a lot, they probably have some recommendations. It is their reputation, after all. They might have a process worked out for FP4, or they might not. It's worth asking.
I don't use Rodinal, so I can't say, but typically when someone says "shoot it at XX speed," they mean shoot it at XX speed and develop it at box speed. Otherwise they'd say "pull it to XX speed."
A lot of B&W films tolerate over-exposure quite well. Going from 125 to 80 will usually give you slightly more detail in the shadows but push the lighter tones slightly closer to white. Not a bad thing, for the most part. You're talking about less than a stop, well within the range of most films. If it's noticeable, it's the difference between a nice shot and one that looks great.
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R
rich815
Guest
All excellent advice. I would add however that if you are scanning to not be too aggressive on rating the film down without corresponding adjustment of development as in my experience dense negs which would typically print beautifully with traditional darkroom printing can sometimes be a challenge to scan well.
Here are a few examples of my photos using the FP4+ and Rodinal combination. Times and temps are in the image titles. I typically shoot it at box speed:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rich8155/435187963/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rich8155/90231887/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rich8155/350133491/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rich8155/90231974/
Here are a few examples of my photos using the FP4+ and Rodinal combination. Times and temps are in the image titles. I typically shoot it at box speed:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rich8155/435187963/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rich8155/90231887/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rich8155/350133491/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rich8155/90231974/
schrackman
Established
Wow, great info and examples. Thanks everyone. I really can't wait till I take the developing class. I would love to do this stuff at home and experiment.
sepiareverb
genius and moron
The above posters have it right, anything I add will just muddy the waters. Have fun!
giellaleafapmu
Well-known
40oz said:
I think some explanations are a bit confusing. If you think that the film has a speed different than what is writen on the box (it could be the case here) then you shot at 80 and develop as for 125 but if you say that you give +1, +2, -1, -2...whatever exposition then you should also change development. In both cases I would tell that to your lab or, even better, once you got to this point, I would learn how to do it myself (it is much simpler than you might think and it is not expensive). If you are giving a real +1, +2, -1, -2 then the lab should change the times. If you just think you need one more stop exposition (which I find to be the case with most films) you might still tell them what you want just in case they think to "correct the common mistake" and give a longer than indicated development...
GLF
schrackman
Established
Here's another question for you all...
There isn't a lab close by (near Banning, Ca) that I know of who processes b/w film using Rodinal.
Since I have yet to learn how to develop film, is there anyboby here who wants to give a shot at developing my roll of Ilford FP4+ 125 in Rodinol? I'll pay the postage to and fro and the going rate for development. I don't need pics, just the negs for scanning.
I used various f/stops and shutters speeds, and I'm pretty sure some of the photos will be underexposed. But there should be a few that come out okay. And they're only shapshots, nothing that I would think would be of any commercial value. So I wouldn't be upset if the whole roll didn't turn out well.
Anybody close by in southern California or a nearby state that would like to tackle this for me?
Ray
There isn't a lab close by (near Banning, Ca) that I know of who processes b/w film using Rodinal.
Since I have yet to learn how to develop film, is there anyboby here who wants to give a shot at developing my roll of Ilford FP4+ 125 in Rodinol? I'll pay the postage to and fro and the going rate for development. I don't need pics, just the negs for scanning.
I used various f/stops and shutters speeds, and I'm pretty sure some of the photos will be underexposed. But there should be a few that come out okay. And they're only shapshots, nothing that I would think would be of any commercial value. So I wouldn't be upset if the whole roll didn't turn out well.
Anybody close by in southern California or a nearby state that would like to tackle this for me?
Ray
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John Bragg
Well-known
Hi, Ray.
I wish you the best with your efforts in black and white. Rodinal is a developer that can give wonderful results, but there is an open secret to using it successfully..... It responds best to limited agitation. once you get kitted out for souping your own, you will be able to get the absolute best out of it.
Regards, John.
I wish you the best with your efforts in black and white. Rodinal is a developer that can give wonderful results, but there is an open secret to using it successfully..... It responds best to limited agitation. once you get kitted out for souping your own, you will be able to get the absolute best out of it.
Regards, John.
Bryce
Well-known
Getting into developing film yourself is rewarding and quite simple.
I highly recommend you buy a tank, reels, thermometer and chemicals and just try it yourself.
You are fortunate- Freestyle is in your general neighborhood, so you should have no trouble sourcing everything you need- though Graigslist or the local paper could be a good way to save a few dollars on the hardware.
Even if you have someone else develop a roll or two, you may have trouble reproducing their exact results. So it is best just to dive in.
I highly recommend you buy a tank, reels, thermometer and chemicals and just try it yourself.
You are fortunate- Freestyle is in your general neighborhood, so you should have no trouble sourcing everything you need- though Graigslist or the local paper could be a good way to save a few dollars on the hardware.
Even if you have someone else develop a roll or two, you may have trouble reproducing their exact results. So it is best just to dive in.
drewbarb
picnic like it's 1999
I'll bite. I'm not close by though- I'm in Louisville KY- but I do processing for a few people. I make about half my living doing b&w darkroom work for other folks, and one of my clients wants a whole lot of stuff done in Rodinal over the coming months, so I'll be using it even more than usual. (I have processed at least half of my personal film in Rodinal over the last ten years. I like it a lot, and I'm pretty comfortable with it.) If you want to send it to me, I'll run it with the other stuff I'm doing.
Either way, if your film is going to a good lab with techs who will talk with you, they can do the best work with the most information. Tell them how you shot it- what E.I. you used, what effects/look you are after, and what chemistry you want it run in, and they should give you the best results you can get. If, on the other hand you are taking it to a lab where you will just drop it off with a non-technical counter-person and the techs in the back somewhere will do whatever they think is best, just shoot the film over the box speed (say, somewhere between E.I. 64 to 100 for 125 box speed film) and tell the lab to run it as normal.
Sepiareverb's testing suggestion is right on, whether you are droping the film off or doing it yourself. Shoot a roll as test, with the same images rated at different E.I.'s and process normally. Keep good notes so you know which is which later, and pick the E.I. which gives the best negatives. AS a more advanced option, you can adjust your processing times and agitation routine to get the best negs from whatever speed you want to use. Good luck, and enjoy!
Either way, if your film is going to a good lab with techs who will talk with you, they can do the best work with the most information. Tell them how you shot it- what E.I. you used, what effects/look you are after, and what chemistry you want it run in, and they should give you the best results you can get. If, on the other hand you are taking it to a lab where you will just drop it off with a non-technical counter-person and the techs in the back somewhere will do whatever they think is best, just shoot the film over the box speed (say, somewhere between E.I. 64 to 100 for 125 box speed film) and tell the lab to run it as normal.
Sepiareverb's testing suggestion is right on, whether you are droping the film off or doing it yourself. Shoot a roll as test, with the same images rated at different E.I.'s and process normally. Keep good notes so you know which is which later, and pick the E.I. which gives the best negatives. AS a more advanced option, you can adjust your processing times and agitation routine to get the best negs from whatever speed you want to use. Good luck, and enjoy!
R
rich815
Guest
schrackman said:
I've got some FP4+ in my shoebox of undeveloped rolls that I was planning to develop in Rodinal. Send it my way and I'll be happy to include it in my next developing binge.
I'm in the San Francisco area.
NickTrop
Veteran
schrackman - I would really, really, really recommend just jumping in and doing it! Developing negs really isn't hard at all, and it's fun. I can see a class in printing, but negative development? Nah. Plan to sacrifice your first couple rolls to the Gods of the learning curve. The hardest part of development will be spooling your first couple rolls. (Though I find 35mm works a charm but occasionally get stubborn 120 rolls...) It's the coolest thing to see "you got neg" for the first time.
Just do it!
Just do it!
R
RML
Guest
Getting 35mm film on a spool is indeed the easiest thing once you get the hang of it. It took me 2 tries with an expended roll I got from a local (now defunct) photo shop.
120 film, though, is giving me head aches. I once sat for nigh 30 minutes with the spool and the film in a film bag and struggled to get the bl**dy film on the spool.
120 film, though, is giving me head aches. I once sat for nigh 30 minutes with the spool and the film in a film bag and struggled to get the bl**dy film on the spool.
giellaleafapmu
Well-known
John Bragg said:
I totally agree with this...and I think it applies to other developer too...
Learning how to process your film is really much easier than you might think. You need very little equipment (a tank and a termometer is more or less all you need) and sooner than you think you will be able to get much better results than the ones you get from most labs (not because they are bad, just they usually do not know what you want and/or do not have the time to do all kind of experiments you can do on your own film).
GLF
NickTrop
Veteran
RML said:Getting 35mm film on a spool is indeed the easiest thing once you get the hang of it. It took me 2 tries with an expended roll I got from a local (now defunct) photo shop.
120 film, though, is giving me head aches. I once sat for nigh 30 minutes with the spool and the film in a film bag and struggled to get the bl**dy film on the spool.
I use plastic Jobo for everything. 35mm loads right up in a snap. I find it easier to leave it on the cartridge and just be careful to leave a little film peeking out the cartridge when I rewind and spool it on to the reel from the cart, rather then taking it out with a can opener like they usually say to do. Loads up straight away, never had a problem with 35.
I feel your pain with 120, though. I've had those 20-30 minute frustrating sessions with your hands sweating inside a changing bag with a roll that just doesn't want to cooperate.
I recently broke down and bought a steel Hewes reel and a steel tank for 120 but haven't shot any 120 since I bought it. If it works as well as I hear, I'll still use the Jobo for 35 but the Hewes for 120.
350D_user
B+W film devotee
My first attempt at 120 film had me fumbling in the darkbag, only to realise that I was attempting to load the paper backing, instead of the film itself.RML said:120 film, though, is giving me head aches. I once sat for nigh 30 minutes with the spool and the film in a film bag and struggled to get the bl**dy film on the spool.