GaryLH
Veteran
This post is being split into four posts (went over page limit)
Ricoh's GW3 wide angle adapter --> 28 to 21 FOV
I decided to create three different reference shots to be used for the GW3 comparisons.
- Fuji XE1 using 14f2.8
- Sigma SD1M using the 10-20f3.5 Zoom at
-- 14mm
-- 18mm
All shots taken first wide open and then at f5.6. Center crop and crop of far left edge. Auto white balance on all cameras. The day I shot these images was a cloudy overcast day. The SD1 color balance turned out to be the closest.. The Fuji and Ricoh were a bit warmer.
This is my normal I know your tired of it back yard retaining wall I always use to check things out. All shots were hand held. Yes if I did this with a tripod, it would be sharper, but my normal shooting is always handheld. All shots were about 10-12 feet away. These are all reduced size jpgs designed to fit in 1024x1024. The RAW or TIFF16 files show much more details. The comments that I am going to be making are based on what I see from Aperture using the RAW and TIFF16 files.
First the overall wall shot from the Fuji XE1 14mm @f5.6
The SD1M @14mm f5.6 next
The SD1M @18 f5.6
Look at 100% center crop of Fuji at 2.8 and 5.6
Now lets look at 100% center crop of the SD1M 14mm at 2.8 and 5.6
The 100% center crop of the SD1M 18mm at f2.8 and 5.6
The shots from the Fuji are not too bad, they are a bit warmer compared to the Sigma shots. The Sigma is closer to what it should look like, but it does have a bit colder color cast. Given the cloudy overcast day, this is to be expected.
The Sigma shots at f5.6 all show much better fine detail then the Fuji shots. To keep things simple, I will use the Sigma shots as a reference for the GR and the DP shots and only concentrate on the center 100% crop from this point on when doing the comparison itself.
Gary
PS correction. I decided not to use the far left edge 100% crop. Decided the center told the main story.
Ricoh's GW3 wide angle adapter --> 28 to 21 FOV
I decided to create three different reference shots to be used for the GW3 comparisons.
- Fuji XE1 using 14f2.8
- Sigma SD1M using the 10-20f3.5 Zoom at
-- 14mm
-- 18mm
All shots taken first wide open and then at f5.6. Center crop and crop of far left edge. Auto white balance on all cameras. The day I shot these images was a cloudy overcast day. The SD1 color balance turned out to be the closest.. The Fuji and Ricoh were a bit warmer.
This is my normal I know your tired of it back yard retaining wall I always use to check things out. All shots were hand held. Yes if I did this with a tripod, it would be sharper, but my normal shooting is always handheld. All shots were about 10-12 feet away. These are all reduced size jpgs designed to fit in 1024x1024. The RAW or TIFF16 files show much more details. The comments that I am going to be making are based on what I see from Aperture using the RAW and TIFF16 files.
First the overall wall shot from the Fuji XE1 14mm @f5.6
The SD1M @14mm f5.6 next
The SD1M @18 f5.6
Look at 100% center crop of Fuji at 2.8 and 5.6
Now lets look at 100% center crop of the SD1M 14mm at 2.8 and 5.6
The 100% center crop of the SD1M 18mm at f2.8 and 5.6
The shots from the Fuji are not too bad, they are a bit warmer compared to the Sigma shots. The Sigma is closer to what it should look like, but it does have a bit colder color cast. Given the cloudy overcast day, this is to be expected.
The Sigma shots at f5.6 all show much better fine detail then the Fuji shots. To keep things simple, I will use the Sigma shots as a reference for the GR and the DP shots and only concentrate on the center 100% crop from this point on when doing the comparison itself.
Gary
PS correction. I decided not to use the far left edge 100% crop. Decided the center told the main story.
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GaryLH
Veteran
Part 2 comparing the Ricoh GR and GW3
Part 2 comparing the Ricoh GR and GW3
First up Ricoh GR without the GW3 at f2.8 and f5.6. Baseline to see what happens when the GW3 is added.
Same set of shots but with GW3 attached.
When looking at the 100% crops with and without the GW3, I really can't see any glaring lose of detail with the GW3. At least to me not enough to worry about. When you compare it to the SD1M 100% crop at f5.6 for both the 14 and 18 mm setting of the zoom, there is more detail then what can be seen on the GR with and without the GW3.
Gary
Part 2 comparing the Ricoh GR and GW3
First up Ricoh GR without the GW3 at f2.8 and f5.6. Baseline to see what happens when the GW3 is added.
Same set of shots but with GW3 attached.
When looking at the 100% crops with and without the GW3, I really can't see any glaring lose of detail with the GW3. At least to me not enough to worry about. When you compare it to the SD1M 100% crop at f5.6 for both the 14 and 18 mm setting of the zoom, there is more detail then what can be seen on the GR with and without the GW3.
Gary
GaryLH
Veteran
Part 3 - dp Merrill and gw3
Part 3 - dp Merrill and gw3
Since I have the GW3 I decided to play around with the DP1 and 2 Merrill with it. First some observations..
- I discovered that the focus was not quite right when u use the GW3 on the DP Merrill cameras.
-- The DP1M was not too bad but the DP2M was the noticeable.
--- By f5.6 the focus error disappears on the DP1M and but still noticeable noticeable on the DP2M, just not as bad.
--- Given that this is only 10-12 feet away, at farther distances like 30ft to infinity, the DP1M with the GW3 should have negligible to no issue at f5.6 to f11.
-- I decided to check this against the Fuji X100 since it has a WCL wide angle adapter
--- I found the same problem at first with the X100 using the GW3 then I remembered that about the menu option for enabling the WCL adapter usage. After this was done, there was no noticeable AF focus issue.
--- The GR also has a wide angle active option on their menu system. So there is some focus adjustment that needs to be made when the adapter is attached.
Here are the DP1M shots without the GW3
Comparing the SD1M at 18mm 100% crops to DP1M versions, the DP1M has noticeable more detail in comparison. A lens matched to the sensor really cannot be beat. The 10-20f3.5 zoom is a fairly old design compared to the more recent zoom designs of the last year or so.
The white balance of the DP Merrill's is between the SD1M and GR or Fuji shots. But when u compare the DP Merrill auto white balance results to the SD1m, the DP Merrill turns out to be closer then the GR or Fuji shots.
Here is the DP1M shots with the GW3
Surprise..surprise..
Yes there is some loss of detail compared to without the GW3 on the DP1M.. but if u go back and compare the SD1M versions of the same 100% crops, the DP1M even with the GW3 attached still looks better. Comparing between the GR and DP1M with the GW3, the DP1M shots look better to me. Looking at the Fuji XE crops vs the DP1M with GW3, the DP1M still looks better.
I initially did a comparison between using the DP1 and 2 Merrill but for the GW3 crops I ended up using 200% crop so that I had the same exact area to compare for the with and without crops pairs. In hindsight this was a mistake. I should have kept everything at 100%.
Part 3 - dp Merrill and gw3
Since I have the GW3 I decided to play around with the DP1 and 2 Merrill with it. First some observations..
- I discovered that the focus was not quite right when u use the GW3 on the DP Merrill cameras.
-- The DP1M was not too bad but the DP2M was the noticeable.
--- By f5.6 the focus error disappears on the DP1M and but still noticeable noticeable on the DP2M, just not as bad.
--- Given that this is only 10-12 feet away, at farther distances like 30ft to infinity, the DP1M with the GW3 should have negligible to no issue at f5.6 to f11.
-- I decided to check this against the Fuji X100 since it has a WCL wide angle adapter
--- I found the same problem at first with the X100 using the GW3 then I remembered that about the menu option for enabling the WCL adapter usage. After this was done, there was no noticeable AF focus issue.
--- The GR also has a wide angle active option on their menu system. So there is some focus adjustment that needs to be made when the adapter is attached.
Here are the DP1M shots without the GW3
Comparing the SD1M at 18mm 100% crops to DP1M versions, the DP1M has noticeable more detail in comparison. A lens matched to the sensor really cannot be beat. The 10-20f3.5 zoom is a fairly old design compared to the more recent zoom designs of the last year or so.
The white balance of the DP Merrill's is between the SD1M and GR or Fuji shots. But when u compare the DP Merrill auto white balance results to the SD1m, the DP Merrill turns out to be closer then the GR or Fuji shots.
Here is the DP1M shots with the GW3
Surprise..surprise..
Yes there is some loss of detail compared to without the GW3 on the DP1M.. but if u go back and compare the SD1M versions of the same 100% crops, the DP1M even with the GW3 attached still looks better. Comparing between the GR and DP1M with the GW3, the DP1M shots look better to me. Looking at the Fuji XE crops vs the DP1M with GW3, the DP1M still looks better.
I initially did a comparison between using the DP1 and 2 Merrill but for the GW3 crops I ended up using 200% crop so that I had the same exact area to compare for the with and without crops pairs. In hindsight this was a mistake. I should have kept everything at 100%.
GaryLH
Veteran
Part 4 dp2m and gw3
Part 4 dp2m and gw3
The DP2M shots without GW3
GW3 attached to DP2M
You can really see the miss focus issues at f2.8 vs f5.6. I would suspect that if one were to use manual focus instead of auto focus, then then it should be correctable.
Gary
Part 4 dp2m and gw3
The DP2M shots without GW3
GW3 attached to DP2M
You can really see the miss focus issues at f2.8 vs f5.6. I would suspect that if one were to use manual focus instead of auto focus, then then it should be correctable.
Gary
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GaryLH
Veteran
Original thread about this for reference
Original thread about this for reference
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138069
Gary
Original thread about this for reference
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138069
Gary
GaryLH
Veteran
Conclusion
Conclusion
The gw3 wide angle adapter from Ricoh does cause some loss of detail. However, I really don't think it is enough to worry about whether we are talking about the Ricoh GR or Sigma DP Merrill cameras.
With the gw3 attached to the dp1m, even though there was a slight loss of detail, it was IMHO still better then
- Fuji xe1 with 14f2.8
- Sigma SD1m w/ 10-20f3.5 set to 14mm
- Ricoh GR w/ the gw3
The newer 12-24 and 8-16 are suppose to be better than the 10-20 that I have. If I were to do this again, I would get one of those two for the wide angle. Sigma does not have a fixed focal length in the 14 (21 fov) for their sd1m...
Gary
Conclusion
The gw3 wide angle adapter from Ricoh does cause some loss of detail. However, I really don't think it is enough to worry about whether we are talking about the Ricoh GR or Sigma DP Merrill cameras.
With the gw3 attached to the dp1m, even though there was a slight loss of detail, it was IMHO still better then
- Fuji xe1 with 14f2.8
- Sigma SD1m w/ 10-20f3.5 set to 14mm
- Ricoh GR w/ the gw3
The newer 12-24 and 8-16 are suppose to be better than the 10-20 that I have. If I were to do this again, I would get one of those two for the wide angle. Sigma does not have a fixed focal length in the 14 (21 fov) for their sd1m...
Gary
noimmunity
scratch my niche
Really appreciate the comparison.
"Fuji color", which I like for people quite a bit more than the Merrill color, takes a hit here, IMHO.
It is generally recognized that the DP*Merrills boast lenses that are the best in the Sigma stable for bringing out the strengths of the Merrill sensor.
I'm sure to pick up a converter for the DP1M when I pass through New York next month.
Now just curious to find out if anybody has done a comparison between the Ricoh converter and the Fuji converter on the DP1M?
"Fuji color", which I like for people quite a bit more than the Merrill color, takes a hit here, IMHO.
It is generally recognized that the DP*Merrills boast lenses that are the best in the Sigma stable for bringing out the strengths of the Merrill sensor.
I'm sure to pick up a converter for the DP1M when I pass through New York next month.
Now just curious to find out if anybody has done a comparison between the Ricoh converter and the Fuji converter on the DP1M?
FA Limited
missing in action
that's a lot of work gary, not really cams i am considering but appreciate the effort
surprising the DP1M+GW3 is better than the X-E1 and 14mm
surprising the DP1M+GW3 is better than the X-E1 and 14mm
GaryLH
Veteran
Most of today's cameras have gotten so good, that frankly speaking unless u start putting shot of against the other or u are one of those lucky few that have good memory for details, I don't the average person could tell the difference.
Even though I know that the sigma can do better then all my other digital cameras, it does not mean I won't use them. There is more to a shot then how well something resolves detail.
Thanks,
Gary
noimmunity
scratch my niche
Hey Gary, I just ordered the Ricoh converter. Figured I would never be able to find out if there is any difference compared to the Fuji one.
GaryLH
Veteran
Dp2m update
Dp2m update
So there is definitely a focus error with the GW3 attached. It really does not matter if we are talking about the DP1M or DP2M. What I am discovering also is that u can minimize the focus error using this procedure:
- With GW3 removed - use AF focus to get correct focus point
- Set to manual focus mode in order not to change focus point
- attach the GW3 and take the picture
What I noticed is that with the DP2M, the f2.8 still looks worst then the one on the DP1M version. I kind of wonder if this is really due to the fact that this wide angle adapter is designed for an 18mm lens and anything too great will have its own issues. From 5.6 onward it looks better than before.
I noticed that the AF focus point is slightly to left of the 6 on the distance scale my I went from AF to MF mode, using the new approach as well. But if I used the older approach of just going AF only the distance scale is way off closer to the infinity mark when I change to manual focusing instead.
Anyway to keep the post short, I am only going to post the 100% center crops this time.
f2.8 - really bad even with new approach
f4.0 - still bad but looking better
f5.6 - Looking better but still not as good as the DP1M at did at this f stop
f8 - matches closer to what the DP1M looks like at f5.6
Personally, given the results of my testing, I am never going to use the GW3 with the DP2M or the Fuji X100. For the Fuji, it is better to use their own WCL and now the new TCL.
Gary
Dp2m update
So there is definitely a focus error with the GW3 attached. It really does not matter if we are talking about the DP1M or DP2M. What I am discovering also is that u can minimize the focus error using this procedure:
- With GW3 removed - use AF focus to get correct focus point
- Set to manual focus mode in order not to change focus point
- attach the GW3 and take the picture
What I noticed is that with the DP2M, the f2.8 still looks worst then the one on the DP1M version. I kind of wonder if this is really due to the fact that this wide angle adapter is designed for an 18mm lens and anything too great will have its own issues. From 5.6 onward it looks better than before.
I noticed that the AF focus point is slightly to left of the 6 on the distance scale my I went from AF to MF mode, using the new approach as well. But if I used the older approach of just going AF only the distance scale is way off closer to the infinity mark when I change to manual focusing instead.
Anyway to keep the post short, I am only going to post the 100% center crops this time.
f2.8 - really bad even with new approach
f4.0 - still bad but looking better
f5.6 - Looking better but still not as good as the DP1M at did at this f stop
f8 - matches closer to what the DP1M looks like at f5.6
Personally, given the results of my testing, I am never going to use the GW3 with the DP2M or the Fuji X100. For the Fuji, it is better to use their own WCL and now the new TCL.
Gary
GaryLH
Veteran
noimmunity
scratch my niche
Just got it in the mail this morning. Quick and sloppy rush test on the DP1M looks good. Using the sharpening slider in SPP, the results are impressive! Definitely usable for those shots when I want that field of view on a Foveon capture device with a small form factor
Gary, did you try using any sharpening? I should try to find time to compare the sharpening in SPP with doing it in LR.
I'm still very curious though to see how that DP1M + GW-3 compares to the SD1M with 8-16 at 14mm.
GaryLH
Veteran
No sharpening in spp, my normal sharpening in aperture instead. I suspect direct raw sharpening is probably better. I just did a quick batch raw to tiff conversion. I give it a try. What value in spp did u end up using?
Gary
Gary
noimmunity
scratch my niche
I started timidly at first but quickly took the bold step of pushing sharpening up to +1.1
I should note that with the DP*Ms, I normally never use sharpening.
noimmunity
scratch my niche
noimmunity
scratch my niche
Here's a quick n sloppy comparison
DP1M
DP1M by areality4all, on Flickr
DP1M + GW-3
DP1M + GW-3 by areality4all, on Flickr
Center crop DP1M
center crop DP1M by areality4all, on Flickr
Center Crop DP1M + GW-3
center crop DP1M + GW-3 by areality4all, on Flickr
DP1M
DP1M by areality4all, on Flickr
DP1M + GW-3
DP1M + GW-3 by areality4all, on Flickr
Center crop DP1M
center crop DP1M by areality4all, on Flickr
Center Crop DP1M + GW-3
center crop DP1M + GW-3 by areality4all, on Flickr
noimmunity
scratch my niche
I'm very pleased with the results so far. The image quality obviously suffers with the converter on, but it looks like it will be good enough for large prints.
Will be nice to have the added flexibility!
Will be nice to have the added flexibility!
GaryLH
Veteran
Looks good.. Enjoy. I guess I will experiment w/ spp sharpening and create a gw3 profile for it.
Gary
Gary
noimmunity
scratch my niche
I also picked up the close focus adapter for the DP2M.
No plans to be an early adopter of the dpQ.
No plans to be an early adopter of the dpQ.