Rodinal with Xtol

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imush

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I use mostly Rodinal, except for high speed film like Neopan 1600 and sometimes Tri-X, where I use Xtol. Well, not quite Xtol; because of the ridiculous 5L packaging I use the equivalent called Fomadon Excel.

As expected, with Tri-X Rodinal is beautiful but looks grainy (I like it, but many people do not), whereas Xtol negatives are generally nice, but too flat to my taste.

I tried mixing Rodinal with Borax and ascorbate, the results were not very consistent, sometimes interesting, but not very different. Now I am interested in the Xtol+Rodinal combination, which seems chemically counterintuitive (as is ascorbate in Rodinal) but reportedly works. Any regular users of this combination, with either Tri-X or Neopan 1600? I am mostly inerested in Tri-X; Neopan is never too flat anyway.
 
Can't help with Tri-X yet. To date I have only used the combination with Efke 25, Xtol 1:3, Rodinal 1:100, 8 minutes, 68F, continuous agitation. Results warrent further investigation.

Look for the advice at The Unblinking Eye. Xtol dilutions higher than 1:3 are suggested. Good luck! Keep us posted.
 
I have experimented around based on a thread here in RFF. The general rule of thumb is use Xtol 1+4 and Rodinal 1:100, and develop for 25% less time than Xtol 1+3. this works fine. For TriX at EI 250 I use a timing of 14 mins in this combo.

Lately however, I have developed a method to spike the Xtol mixture. I develop in Xtol 1+3 for the normal time. At, T_end-3 mins, I spike the mixture with 1:100 or 1:75 Rodinal, and agitate very slowly for one whole minute. I seem to get interesting mix of both properties. The grain seems nice (for TriX) and a a nice acutance punch (with tones) got in by Rodinal. Maybe it's all in my head, but the negatives do look sharper in this mix than the standard Xtol.

sample:
APX 100
M6_APX100_008.jpg


3548935354_48f0ccd354.jpg


Tri-X
3467387483_e9f711bbf2.jpg
 
Thanks, I'll try that and report the results.

You do that to Efke and APX100 as well? Perhaps will try that too, but actually I think these are as good as I ever hope to get with straight Rodinal.
 
naruto said:
Lately however, I have developed a method to spike the Xtol mixture. I develop in Xtol 1+3 for the normal time. At, T_end-3 mins, I spike the mixture with 1:100 or 1:75 Rodinal, and agitate very slowly for one whole minute. I seem to get interesting mix of both properties. The grain seems nice (for TriX) and a a nice acutance punch (with tones) got in by Rodinal. Maybe it's all in my head, but the negatives do look sharper in this mix than the standard Xtol.
Click to expand...

Interesting, thank you for the inspiration.
 
For APX100 you will not find easily a better combination then Rodinal 1+50. For Efke 25 it's also a good combi however Beutler 1+1+10 is even better with this high definition, high acutance developer.
 
See Robert Vincent's Rodinal/Xtol work (aka _Honus_ ) on flickr. I don't recall if he has any TX @ 1600 with a Rodinal/XTol combination, lately he has shot TriX @ 1000 in XTol stock.

Naruto: Your stuff is very, very nice! I suspect it's the reduced agitation with the Rodinal; I don't agitate much (if at all) when using Rodinal; I think the grain is better as a result.

Here is an email I got from Robert nearly 2 years ago when I inquired about the combination:
----------------------------------------
Earl,

Sorry for the delay in responding.

I have been experimenting with the Rodinal+Xtol combination
for a year now. It originates from discussions at APUG
regarding the use of Vitamin C as an adjunct to Rodinal. I
have been pleasantly surprised with the results, and am
starting to use the combination exclusively. I believe it
gives a wide tonal range like Xtol with better edge
contrast from the Rodinal.

I have used 3 different formulations (using a 300 ml steel
tank):

Low Dilution:
Rodinal 1+50 + Xtol Stock
(6 ml Rodinal + 300ml Xtol)

Medium Dilution:
Rodinal 1+100 + Xtol 1:1
(3 ml Rodinal + 150ml Xtol + 150ml water)

High Dilution:
Rodinal 1+100 + Xtol 1:4
(3ml Rodinal + 60ml Xtol + 240ml water)

I normally develop at about 90% of the time for the
equivalent Xtol dilution listed on the Massive Development
Chart.

The only Tri-X example I have posted thus far is this one:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/_honus_/446893394/
This was developed with the High Dilution @ 68c for
12.5min.

I just finished a roll exposed @ 400iso in the Low Dilution
@ 68c for 6.5 min. I haven't scanned the negs yet, but they
look really promising under the loupe.

I've had a number of people enquire privately about the
mixture, but so far I haven't seen anyone else give it a
try. If you do, please let me know your impressions.​
 
Trius said:
Naruto: Your stuff is very, very nice! I suspect it's the reduced agitation with the Rodinal; I don't agitate much (if at all) when using Rodinal; I think the grain is better as a result.
Click to expand...

Thanks Earl. And, thanks for posting that email snippet here. That was the starting point for all my experimentation.
 
imush said:
I am getting to like the mix, but somehow would like still more Rodinal-ish and less Xtol-ish look.
Click to expand...

Try lowering the Xtol concentration or increasing the Rodinal strength.

Those shots are very nice. The grain seems quite large, do you agitate it more often?
 
Actually, I would recommend raising the Xtol dilution up to 1:1 and keep the Rodinal at 1+100.

I normally pull Tri-X @ 250 iso and develop for 8.25 min. I also like the results pushing to 2000 iso and develop for 12.5 min. Light agitation, as Trius pointed out, is helpful.

You can see some examples using this combo and other Rodinal+Xtol combinations at http://www.flickr.com/photos/_honus_/tags/rodinalxtol/.

Let us know the results.
 
Honus said:
Actually, I would recommend raising the Xtol dilution up to 1:1 and keep the Rodinal at 1+100.
Click to expand...

Robert, wouldn't raising Xtol dilution lead to smoother/finer grain ? And the TS wanted a more Rodinal-look than Xtol ?
:confused:
 
naruto said:
Robert, wouldn't raising Xtol dilution lead to smoother/finer grain ? And the TS wanted a more Rodinal-look than Xtol ?
:confused:
Click to expand...

Ash - In my experience, I haven't found the high Xtol dilution to be particularly worthwhile. It seems to increase contrast at the expense of mid-tones. If you want a more Rodinal look, just use Rodinal :eek:.

If you want more grain, just increase agitation. Let us know if you have a different experience.
 
Honus said:
Actually, I would recommend raising the Xtol dilution up to 1:1 and keep the Rodinal at 1+100.

I normally pull Tri-X @ 250 iso and develop for 8.25 min. I also like the results pushing to 2000 iso and develop for 12.5 min. Light agitation, as Trius pointed out, is helpful.

You can see some examples using this combo and other Rodinal+Xtol combinations at http://www.flickr.com/photos/_honus_/tags/rodinalxtol/.

Let us know the results.
Click to expand...

Robert,

What kind of agitation routine do you use for this combination? And one more question to make sure I understand the mixing procedure, Are you adding the Rodinal concentrate to the diluted Xtol in the ratio of one part Rodinal to one hundred parts of 1:1 Xtol? Example; Xtol 250ml + water 250ml + Rodinal 5ml ?

Thanks,

Mike Sullivan
 
Mike: Robert's method may differ, but I DON'T agitate with Rodinal. I think it gives better (tighter, more even) grain, though I admit I don't have empirical evidence to support that. I agitate an initial 30 seconds, then let the film luxuriate in its bath.

Agitation and wet time are the enemies of well-formed grain.
 
Trius said:
Mike: Robert's method may differ, but I DON'T agitate with Rodinal. I think it gives better (tighter, more even) grain, though I admit I don't have empirical evidence to support that. I agitate an initial 30 seconds, then let the film luxuriate in its bath.

Agitation and wet time are the enemies of well-formed grain.
Click to expand...

I BOW to YOU in Agreement....:)
though no PRO by any means
& a hit or miss approach
I have come to the same Conclusion....:cool:
 
Zathros said:
Robert,

What kind of agitation routine do you use for this combination? And one more question to make sure I understand the mixing procedure, Are you adding the Rodinal concentrate to the diluted Xtol in the ratio of one part Rodinal to one hundred parts of 1:1 Xtol? Example; Xtol 250ml + water 250ml + Rodinal 5ml ?

Thanks,

Mike Sullivan
Click to expand...

Mike,

As far as the dilution goes, that is the ratio that I use. As far as agitation, my method is not that far off from Earl's (Trius). With Tri-X rated at 250 iso, I will develop for 8.25 min., agitating for 15 sec. initially, then 3 gentle inversions @ 1, 2, 3, 4 & 6 min. That's about 30 sec. of total agitation.

Everyone agitates differently and has different desires regarding grain, contrast, tonality, etc. I suggest starting with a simple methodology and keep experimenting until you find something that suits you. Let us know how it goes.
 
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