joannajetson
Newbie
I posted this in Rangefinder General Discussion, then realized I should have posted it here, but I can't figure out how to move a post from one forum to another - so I apologize for posting this in 2 forums!
Anyway,
Searching the web, I've found differing opinions about whether Graflex roll film backs will work on a Horseman 970 2-1/4 x 3-1/4 camera (a view camera that's also a rangefinder, which is the way I'd use it). It has a Graflok back, but some postings say that even though the Graflex backs will fit, the film plane won't match up, and I'd have to use a Horseman back (which are about 2x as expensive). Has anyone used one of these with a Graflex back? Thanks!
Joanna
_________
Anyway,
Searching the web, I've found differing opinions about whether Graflex roll film backs will work on a Horseman 970 2-1/4 x 3-1/4 camera (a view camera that's also a rangefinder, which is the way I'd use it). It has a Graflok back, but some postings say that even though the Graflex backs will fit, the film plane won't match up, and I'd have to use a Horseman back (which are about 2x as expensive). Has anyone used one of these with a Graflex back? Thanks!
Joanna
_________
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Having used both Horseman and Graflex roll film backs, I'd assume that there is no difference between their film plane - other than the earlier Graflex backs having a decided lack of planarity in general. By quality I'd choose Mamiya RB backs over Horseman over Graflex "RH" over earlier Graflex backs - but not all backs fit all cameras.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Hi Joanna,
What does your back look like? Is it a levered one, or a Press type, knob-wound?
The 970 is a brilliant camera for sure, I love mine, excellent choice! But, as Sevo pointed out, not all backs fit all cameras. There seems to be a variation between 970/980/985 and the newer VH-R models that most people are not aware of.
This is what I found out so far:
970/980/985: Press type back, hammertone grey levered backs, Graphic 22 and Graphic 23 fit.
VH-R/VH: black levered backs(red slide), Mamiya RB, Fuji6x8 motor back fit.
When it comes to lenses: the lens boards between models are identical, so no issue there. Expect to use up to 230mm/9 inches for maximum bellows draw (but your rangefinder will of course be out, you'll need to use a ground glass back to focus)
There were some nice lenses on eBay last weekend and there is a set of rangefinder cams for sale now: 65mm, 105mm, 180mm, while I need the 150mm
Happy shooting, can we see shots? :angel:
What does your back look like? Is it a levered one, or a Press type, knob-wound?
The 970 is a brilliant camera for sure, I love mine, excellent choice! But, as Sevo pointed out, not all backs fit all cameras. There seems to be a variation between 970/980/985 and the newer VH-R models that most people are not aware of.
This is what I found out so far:
970/980/985: Press type back, hammertone grey levered backs, Graphic 22 and Graphic 23 fit.
VH-R/VH: black levered backs(red slide), Mamiya RB, Fuji6x8 motor back fit.
When it comes to lenses: the lens boards between models are identical, so no issue there. Expect to use up to 230mm/9 inches for maximum bellows draw (but your rangefinder will of course be out, you'll need to use a ground glass back to focus)
There were some nice lenses on eBay last weekend and there is a set of rangefinder cams for sale now: 65mm, 105mm, 180mm, while I need the 150mm
Happy shooting, can we see shots? :angel:
Last edited:
joannajetson
Newbie
Hi, Sevo and Johan - thank you very much for the info. The Horseman was actually a 970, I think, that I was following on the auction site. I decided to let it go for now due to after-Christmas finances!
I recently downsized from a 4x5 (which I seldom used) and bought a nice Century Graphic. I was thinking about the Horseman just to try something different, but I'll stick with the Graphic for now. I had one several years ago and was always impressed by how well the old Ektar lens worked.
I haven't been on this forum for a long time, but I'll post some new color shots from the Graphic once I get them back.
BTW, Johan from Frankfurt - I'm going to be in Schweinfurt from mid-February until mid-April - I hope you've dug out from under the snow by then!
Joanna
I recently downsized from a 4x5 (which I seldom used) and bought a nice Century Graphic. I was thinking about the Horseman just to try something different, but I'll stick with the Graphic for now. I had one several years ago and was always impressed by how well the old Ektar lens worked.
I haven't been on this forum for a long time, but I'll post some new color shots from the Graphic once I get them back.
BTW, Johan from Frankfurt - I'm going to be in Schweinfurt from mid-February until mid-April - I hope you've dug out from under the snow by then!
Joanna
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
She means you, Sevo
Enjoy your stay with the Eastern neighbours then!
Enjoy your stay with the Eastern neighbours then!
kuzano
Veteran
Watch for the extra pin rollers on Graflex film backs...
Watch for the extra pin rollers on Graflex film backs...
Planarity on the Graflex holders was a bit of an issue, but was improved by the addition of a thin pin roller at each end of the film frame. These rollers were added shortly before the knob wind was dropped for the lever wind. The rollers flatten the belly of the film against the film platen.
Many presume the lever wind was the improvement that signified the better Graflex, but that is not the case.
I have owned knob winds with the pin rollers, and have owned lever winds that did not yet have the pin rollers. The pin rollers are chrome and quite obvious from inside the film back with the film insert out.
Regarding the location of the film plane... my experience has been that all camera backs ranked as being Graflok have the film in the same plane if the back is rated Graflok.
However, I am not clear on the back that is ranked as the "Universal" back, which looks much like a Graflok, but the slide locks are a different length.
The backs that I have used for the flattest film planarity are the late Mamiya Press backs. However the Graflex backs (particularly those made by Singer) which have the pin rollers, hold the film very flat.
This is copied from the Graflex web site:
Roll Film Backs
Back Type: Graflok (usually)
There were two sets of models: the numbered series and the RH series. The numbered series includes the Graflex "22" (2-1/4" sq.) and the Graflex "23" (2-1/4 x 3-1/4, though there was some variation +/- 1/4" in various models.) In the later RH series, there were 3 image sizes: RH-12 (2.25" sq), RH-10 (2.25x2.75") and RH-8 (2.25x3.25") and holders were made for 2.25x3.25, 3.25x4.25 and 4x5" cameras with either Graflok or Graflex backs. The RH-20 appears to be the only back designed for 220 film (2-1/4 x 2-3/4).
The later Rochester-made Graphic roll film backs (with the lever wind, usually marked Singer-Graflex or "Rapidvance") hold the film flatter than Cambo or Calumet backs do; if you like to use wide apertures you might find this significant. By and large, the lever wind units have the rollers and the knob wind version do not, although there are exceptions. The non-roller units do not hold modern film flat: it bows approximately 3/32" towards the film, causing shallow focus at low F/stops. These units are to be avoided.
There may also be a slight overall difference in the film plane between my non-roller and roller versions (at least sometimes).
Horseman has current production Graflok roll-film holders. Since the Mamiya RB67 has a 2x3" Graflock back, you can use can take Mamiya roll film holders on a 2x3" Graphic with a Graflok back. Calumet sells non-Graflok roll film holders, but some people rate the lever-wind Singer-Graflex holders flatter.
A warning for those considering purchasing 3x4" cameras: a conversation with WD Service about this revealed that there were no roll-film backs mounted on 3x4" inserts with the pin-rollers so critical for film sharpness. The problem may be subtle and hard to deduce at first because it might appear to be just field curvature or some aberration.
The following table lists a number of the Roll Film backs made by Graflex. Manufacturers may be listed as Graflex, Singer Graflex, or General Precision Graflex. Not all roll film backs are listed.
Watch for the extra pin rollers on Graflex film backs...
Planarity on the Graflex holders was a bit of an issue, but was improved by the addition of a thin pin roller at each end of the film frame. These rollers were added shortly before the knob wind was dropped for the lever wind. The rollers flatten the belly of the film against the film platen.
Many presume the lever wind was the improvement that signified the better Graflex, but that is not the case.
I have owned knob winds with the pin rollers, and have owned lever winds that did not yet have the pin rollers. The pin rollers are chrome and quite obvious from inside the film back with the film insert out.
Regarding the location of the film plane... my experience has been that all camera backs ranked as being Graflok have the film in the same plane if the back is rated Graflok.
However, I am not clear on the back that is ranked as the "Universal" back, which looks much like a Graflok, but the slide locks are a different length.
The backs that I have used for the flattest film planarity are the late Mamiya Press backs. However the Graflex backs (particularly those made by Singer) which have the pin rollers, hold the film very flat.
This is copied from the Graflex web site:
Roll Film Backs
Back Type: Graflok (usually)
The later Rochester-made Graphic roll film backs (with the lever wind, usually marked Singer-Graflex or "Rapidvance") hold the film flatter than Cambo or Calumet backs do; if you like to use wide apertures you might find this significant. By and large, the lever wind units have the rollers and the knob wind version do not, although there are exceptions. The non-roller units do not hold modern film flat: it bows approximately 3/32" towards the film, causing shallow focus at low F/stops. These units are to be avoided.
There may also be a slight overall difference in the film plane between my non-roller and roller versions (at least sometimes).
Horseman has current production Graflok roll-film holders. Since the Mamiya RB67 has a 2x3" Graflock back, you can use can take Mamiya roll film holders on a 2x3" Graphic with a Graflok back. Calumet sells non-Graflok roll film holders, but some people rate the lever-wind Singer-Graflex holders flatter.
A warning for those considering purchasing 3x4" cameras: a conversation with WD Service about this revealed that there were no roll-film backs mounted on 3x4" inserts with the pin-rollers so critical for film sharpness. The problem may be subtle and hard to deduce at first because it might appear to be just field curvature or some aberration.
The following table lists a number of the Roll Film backs made by Graflex. Manufacturers may be listed as Graflex, Singer Graflex, or General Precision Graflex. Not all roll film backs are listed.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Kuzano,
I'm very interested in what you wrote!
Just a couple of days ago a fellow member told me he used a mamiya motorized 6x8 back on his VH-R and I thought I would not be able to use this, but it might be possible after all according to Graflex.org!!
I'm very interested in what you wrote!
Just a couple of days ago a fellow member told me he used a mamiya motorized 6x8 back on his VH-R and I thought I would not be able to use this, but it might be possible after all according to Graflex.org!!