Rolleiflex 2.8 E2

[Peter Browne]

I am looking at a Rolleiflex 2.8 E2 to purchase. Looking at a photo of the camera, I notice that the lens leaf shutter is open. Is that normal?

The camera looks to be in excellent condition, but the seller knows nothing about the camera or how it works.





Also, I gather on this camera, that the ASA/ISO is for reference only. The camera has no light meter (my preference) and I will using an external meter.

 

[CMur12]

No, it shouldn't be like that. The shutter would open all the way during exposure, after which it would close.

It looks like the shutter is stuck.

- Murray

 

[Peter Browne]

No, it shouldn't be like that. The shutter would open all the way during exposure, after which it would close.

It looks like the shutter is stuck.

- Murray

Thanks! That is what I suspected. I gather that could be due to a number of issues.

 

[TenEleven]

I also see cement separation around the rim of the taking lens. You can see the unevenness and milkiness of the reflection in the lens which should be uniform. This is sadly not that uncommon with Planar 2.8 Rolleiflexes as they have a cemented front element. Heat makes cement failure more common, but is not a direct cause.

Together with the shutter blades being stuck open, due to what is most likely running lubricants it may have been that this camera has been exposed to excess heat in its life.

 

[Peter Browne]

I also see cement separation around the rim of the taking lens. You can see the unevenness and milkiness of the reflection in the lens which should be uniform. This is sadly not that uncommon with Planar 2.8 Rolleiflexes as they have a cemented front element. Heat makes cement failure more common, but is not a direct cause.

Together with the shutter blades being stuck open, due to what is most likely running lubricants it may have been that this camera has been exposed to excess heat in its life.

Well I'm learning a lot from your post Manuel, as well as Murray's. Could you point out exactly where you see these issues with the lens, perhaps using an annotated copy of the photo? This would be an excellent reference for me and others.

Re heat exposure, quite possibly, as the interior of a car can rise 30°F in an hour with an outside temperature of 72°F. In Australia it can be common to be in the 90°F range in summer with a car interior being in the 120-130°F range. How long before a camera like this starts to get affected?

 

[TenEleven]

Well I'm learning a lot from your post Manuel, as well as Murray's. Could you point out exactly where you see these issues with the lens, perhaps using an annotated copy of the photo? This would be an excellent reference for me and others.

Re heat exposure, quite possibly, as the interior of a car can rise 30°F in an hour with an outside temperature of 72°F. In Australia it can be common to be in the 90°F range in summer with a car interior being in the 120-130°F range. How long before a camera like this starts to get affected?

It is really hard to make any sort of blanket statement on that really. Ideally any heating beyond 100F should ideally be avoided, with any mechanical camera.

Some brands of lubricant start to break down at around 100F with some oil starting to separate out, especially if the camera is disused and the lubricant is already older. Of course there are many more factors such as the age of the lubricant, the orientation of the camera (can the lubricant run somewhere where it should not?), etc. etc.

I tried to annotate the picture best I could. I think it is not a reflection since I can see a similar pattern faintly in the first picture too. But of course only in-person inspection can provide a definite answer.

Lens separation depends on the lens glue used and the degree of separation, the above example doesn't seem to be severe. It can look hazy, or like an oil slick on water, sometimes especially for the more recessed elements it can appear as a sort of darker spot or shadow.

It should be noted that usually lens cement separation does not have a huge impact on the picture quality, but it does lower the resale value of the camera/lens in question significantly. That being said I had one example where despite not looking very severe the separation caused all sorts of weird flares and internal reflections - again hard to make a call without testing the equipment.

 

[Peter Browne]

When you say separation is not that uncommon on 2.8 Planars, are they less common on 3.5 Planars? Or Xenotars with flat elements?

 

[TenEleven]

Your assumption is 100% correct.

The lesser curvature and smaller circumference of the cemented surface of those lenses, as well as being less exposed (conjecture on my part) makes them less likely to suffer cement failure.

Marco Cavina also suggested that the different temperature coefficients of glass types could also play a rule. Aka more closely matched glass types are less likely to become separated as they heat and cool over the lifetime of the camera/lens.

EDIT: Added an image where you can see the curvature/size of the cemented surfaces quite clearly in comparison:

 

[Peter Browne]

Very helpful again Manuel! Thanks very much for sharing your knowledge.


I have read that Canadian Balsam, which was used to cement lens elements due to its amorphous properties and refractive index being close to glass, has a relatively low melting point. This balsam was apparently used by Zeiss among others.



Peter

 

[Peter Browne]

OK, I have a recommended repairer very close to me in Perth, Western Australia - Max Dellaway who can do the CLA which should fix the shutter issue.

If I need to repair the lens, then I have asked Kanto Camera for a quote.

The camera looks in very nice condition cosmetically (it looks like it has been sitting in a trunk for a long time unused, possibly an estate item), so hopefully a good CLA and if necessary, a professional lens repair by Kanto will bring this up to notch. I feel a duty.

Now I just need to buy it...

 

[Bolo Kukus]

I have a Rolleiflex 3.5E2 of the same vintage as this 2.8E2, early 1960s. My 'flex Planar has one very obvious egg-shaped spot of separation which I first noticed in the mid-1990s - I bought the camera new in 1966 and I still use it a few times every year. This spot expanded a bit in size over the next decade but now seems to have 'stabilized' (which means it isn't growing).

I still use this camera a few times every year. Prints up to 8x10" (the largest I make) show no sign of any fault caused by this 'blip' in the lens, as my Melbourne camera repair man called it in 2003. He told me to not bother having it repaired, the cost in Australia at the time (by an agency in Tasmania as I recall) would be more than the its resale value, which he assessed at the time as "about A$250").

Looking at your first photo, there appears to be a small spot of separation in the viewing lens as well. It isn't very clear but on careful examination I believe I see an area of 'smudge'.

I note you've not told us the price of this camera. I hope it's on offer as a budget item. It should be. I will never sell mine as it was my first good photo gear and I had to save for two years to buy it, but if I did, I doubt it would fetch much more than that 2003 estimate.

At this point we are all madly curious, so come on, man - how much for it?

 

[Peter Browne]

...

At this point we are all madly curious, so come on, man - how much for it?

Why do you say "budget item"...I don't see a lot of E2s around (I'm specifically after an E2, no meter), and what there are seem to have more wear (at least cosmetically) and sell for at least three times this 'budget item'...so this one is currently going for close to the AU$600 mark.

 

[Bolo Kukus]

Why do you say "budget item"...I don't see a lot of E2s around (I'm specifically after an E2, no meter), and what there are sell for at least three times this 'budget item'...so this one is currently going for close to the AU$600 mark.

True, the E2s are fairly uncommon - my Rollei reference books are packed away after our interstate move, but I recall there were around 6,000 made. They were a sort of intermediate model between the Es and the not-yet-available Fs - to me they look like the F with the self-timer lever (my 3.5E2 has a button) set on the right of the taking lens. Google the RolleiClub web site which has or had quite detailed info about these models.

Six hundred (assuming A$ which at today's exchange is +/-US$420-$435) is a reasonable price for an E2. Of course a lot depends on whether you want a shelf queen or a working camera, and how much you'll have to fork out for the two repair jobs. If the former, Bob's your uncle and the sky is the limit, but if it's the latter, a good round of polite bargaining would be in order for me.

CLAs cost a few hundred and even 17 years ago lens re-cementing was expensive. You should make queries and ask for estimates before you buy.

 

[Peter Browne]

True, the E2s are fairly uncommon - my Rollei refeence books are still packed away after our interstate move last year, but I recall there were around 6,000 of them made. They were a sort of intermediate model between the Es and the not-yet-available Fs and to me they look mor elike the F with the self-timer button set on the right. You can Google the RolleiClub web site which has or had info about all these models.

Six hundred is a low price for a good E2. Of course a lot depends on whether you want a shelf queen or a working camera, and how much you'll have to fork out for the two repair jobs. If the former, Bob's your uncle and the sky is the limit, but if it's the latter, a good round of polite bargaining would be in order for me.

CLAs cost a few hundred and even 17 years ago lens recementings were expensive. You should make queries and ask for estimates before you buy.

Thanks.

I want a good camera to take excellent photographs. I also collect, so cosmetic condition is also important.

If it appears to be a camera that has been put way for a long time, and needs some TLC to restore, then I'm happy to do that when the outcome is the above.

I have a quote for approx AU$200 for the CLA from a former Rollei repairer. I expect a lens repair (if needed) would be a bit more from Kanto Camera. At the end of the day, I expect an E2 in better condition inside and out than some of those going on eBay for much higher prices. Still to be determined of course...🙂

 

[NY_Dan]

There isn't anyone I know of who can separate the lens elements and then re-cement them correctly. There was a guy at Focal Point in Colorado - but he retired. So a CLA without the lens separation repair doesn't make much sense.

 

[Beemermark]

I wouldn’t mess with the viewing lens. Separation as shown in that lens would’nt have any effect if it was taking lens. Another 50 years before you see it getting worse. A good CLA will take care of the other issues. Nice camera. All these cameras need A CLA.

 

[Beemermark]

I wouldn’t mess with the viewing lens. Separation as shown in that lens would’nt have any effect if it was taking lens. Another 50 years before you see it getting worse. A good CLA will take care of the other issues. Nice camera. All these cameras need A CLA.

 

[Bolo Kukus]

I have a quote for approx AU$200 for the CLA from a former Rollei repairer. I expect a lens repair (if needed) would be a bit more from Kanto Camera. At the end of the day, I expect an E2 in better condition inside and out than some of those going on eBay for much higher prices. Still to be determined of course...🙂

Two C-notes for the CLA is exceptionally good but the total bill may go up if more work is needed. Parts can also be difficult to find. A good Rollei repair shop often has a few old bodies to cannibalize. As for condition, it seems you've seen the camera already, so you are the best judge of that. For the price you've quoted, if it's A$ you can buy it and easily sell it on for more in the future. Rollei selling prices tend to go up, not down.

A brief story. In 2016 I bought (on Ebay) an E2 from a seller who told me it had been stored for FORTY years. Amazingly, it worked, but overall its somewhat battered condition and unreliability (due to a faulty shutter I lost seven of the 12 negatives I shot with the first test roll) and other reasons mostly to do with finances, I decided to move it on and sold it (also on Ebay) for A$420. The new buyer made much the same decision as I had and also flogged it off 12 months later for A$450. Not bad for a camera that would have needed a complete redo. I still wish I had held on to it, but needs must, and we all have to make these decisions at one time or another.

Let us know your decision and how it goes. Best of luck with it.

 

[TenEleven]

There isn't anyone I know of who can separate the lens elements and then re-cement them correctly. There was a guy at Focal Point in Colorado - but he retired. So a CLA without the lens separation repair doesn't make much sense.

Kanto Camera in Japan does it. They re-cemented a pre-war Sonnar 50/1.5 lens for me, not a particularly rare or expensive lens but this copy was excellent and I wanted to keep it that way.

Kanto Camera also keep the right to refuse re-cementing certain lenses (depending on the design of the lens, the cement used, the state of the lens etc.) and one can be prepared to pay through the nose for it unless it is done alongside other repair.

Regarding the viewing lens: that lens is a triplet. It has no cemented surfaces whatsoever. Also the reflection looks perfectly geometric and regular to me, so I just assume it is that.
Possibly, the lens black on the outer rim of the lens might have flaked or rubbed off causing this phenomenon. Either way I do not find it concerning at all.

 

[Peter Browne]

As for condition, it seems you've seen the camera already...

Well that's part of the problem, we haven't been physically introduced. Miss Rolleiflex is in NSW, I'm in WA. Not possible to become familiar with hard border closures. Just to get back into WA after going to infected parts of the country (no slight on her...) would see me wait weeks to be cleared by the WA authorities for re-entry. Then I would have to fork out $2500 for a compulsory 2 week isolation in a WA hotel with armed guards outside the door. Hardly a honeymoon... :bang: