Lilserenity
Well-known
Hiya,
I love using film but this is really beginning to jar with me. When I process my own B&W at home, I have a very hit and miss affair, mostly miss, with drying my negatives successfully. I have tried all sorts.
Basically I don't live in a test lab environment but I have done my best to minimise dust and to that end, I don't suffer much if at all from dust on my negatives.
What I do get are huge whacking water marks, clumps of white deposit (limescale maybe) and little specks here and there. This is probably mainly due to living in a hard water area and despite my best attempts, I always get them.
I use Xtol (which I am enjoying sort of...) which I mixed up using de-ionised water (I can't get hold of distilled and it's close enough), that said my stop and fixer isn't, mostly for economy's sake (first wrong step?) -- I then wash the negatives in more deionised water using the 'Ilford' method of five inversions, empty, 10 inversions, empty and then on the final 20 inversions I add a couple of drops of photo-flo and then after that hang usually as diagonally as possible, sometimes horizontally the negatives in two strips (either of 12 or 18 depending on 24/36exp) and leave them to dry.
When they're dry, I end up seeing stray flecks, water stains, flecks of white gump....
I don't squegee as it always seems to scratch the negatives and my squeegee is supposedly gentle!
I can't do anything about the water out of my taps being hard as I live on the bottom of a large stretch of chalk hills
Short of shoving the South Downs into the sea (which would actually remove the problem as the negs that have recently been affected are of the South Downs, if they weren't there, no photos, no drying marks, no problem
Now, I can't make my place dust free.
What practical steps can I take to sort this out?
Would a sponge help to wipe the negatives? Should I quit using photo-flo (some of the marks do look a bit like photo-flo bubbles and bits and bobs.)
What modestly priced equipment would help?
I'm considering a Jobo CPE2 to do C41 and maybe E6 at home but I can't go off doing that before my B&W is of consistently good standard.
I usually wipe the negatives after they've dried with an anti-static cloth which does very little, so I re-wash them, and re-wash and eventually on a bad negative I can turn it around, mostly, but as I optically print, I need these negatives to be near as possible to be spot/mark/drying mark/crap free
I just really want to get this problem sorted once and for all,
Thanks,
Vicky
I love using film but this is really beginning to jar with me. When I process my own B&W at home, I have a very hit and miss affair, mostly miss, with drying my negatives successfully. I have tried all sorts.
Basically I don't live in a test lab environment but I have done my best to minimise dust and to that end, I don't suffer much if at all from dust on my negatives.
What I do get are huge whacking water marks, clumps of white deposit (limescale maybe) and little specks here and there. This is probably mainly due to living in a hard water area and despite my best attempts, I always get them.
I use Xtol (which I am enjoying sort of...) which I mixed up using de-ionised water (I can't get hold of distilled and it's close enough), that said my stop and fixer isn't, mostly for economy's sake (first wrong step?) -- I then wash the negatives in more deionised water using the 'Ilford' method of five inversions, empty, 10 inversions, empty and then on the final 20 inversions I add a couple of drops of photo-flo and then after that hang usually as diagonally as possible, sometimes horizontally the negatives in two strips (either of 12 or 18 depending on 24/36exp) and leave them to dry.
When they're dry, I end up seeing stray flecks, water stains, flecks of white gump....
I don't squegee as it always seems to scratch the negatives and my squeegee is supposedly gentle!
I can't do anything about the water out of my taps being hard as I live on the bottom of a large stretch of chalk hills
Short of shoving the South Downs into the sea (which would actually remove the problem as the negs that have recently been affected are of the South Downs, if they weren't there, no photos, no drying marks, no problem Now, I can't make my place dust free.
What practical steps can I take to sort this out?
Would a sponge help to wipe the negatives? Should I quit using photo-flo (some of the marks do look a bit like photo-flo bubbles and bits and bobs.)
What modestly priced equipment would help?
I'm considering a Jobo CPE2 to do C41 and maybe E6 at home but I can't go off doing that before my B&W is of consistently good standard.
I usually wipe the negatives after they've dried with an anti-static cloth which does very little, so I re-wash them, and re-wash and eventually on a bad negative I can turn it around, mostly, but as I optically print, I need these negatives to be near as possible to be spot/mark/drying mark/crap free
I just really want to get this problem sorted once and for all,
Thanks,
Vicky
wintoid
Back to film
Vicky,
I've been through this in the last few years and it's very disheartening. I am now out the other side, which is wonderful. Keep the faith. I'm sure you'll find out what it is.
Are you reusing your stop and fix? If so, it's quite economical to use deionised water. This was one of the things that helped me.
During the period when I didn't have this sorted, I used PEC-12 to clean the base side of my negatives very successfully. The marks, in my case, never seemed to be on the emulsion side.
Simon.
I've been through this in the last few years and it's very disheartening. I am now out the other side, which is wonderful. Keep the faith. I'm sure you'll find out what it is.
Are you reusing your stop and fix? If so, it's quite economical to use deionised water. This was one of the things that helped me.
During the period when I didn't have this sorted, I used PEC-12 to clean the base side of my negatives very successfully. The marks, in my case, never seemed to be on the emulsion side.
Simon.
Matus
Well-known
I am using distilled water only for developer and for the fixer - as my stop is plain water (I develop with Pyrocat HD) However - I DO use a Photo-Flo in distilled water for one minute as a very last step of the development. I have yet to get stains. And we do have a very hard water (lots of stuff in it) here.
If you can not get hold of distilled water than you may consider getting some filters and filter the water. Deionizing helps to reduce the deposition of the minerals dissolved in water in the water pipes, but once you let to dry it, most of them (the minerals) will remain on your film. So you may want to consider getting a distilled water at least for the last wash.
So - do try some photo-flo. Using it with distilled water should eliminate your problems completely.
If you can not get hold of distilled water than you may consider getting some filters and filter the water. Deionizing helps to reduce the deposition of the minerals dissolved in water in the water pipes, but once you let to dry it, most of them (the minerals) will remain on your film. So you may want to consider getting a distilled water at least for the last wash.
So - do try some photo-flo. Using it with distilled water should eliminate your problems completely.
wintoid
Back to film
Ronald_H
Don't call me Ron
I had the same problem. All it took was 1 (yes, one) tiny drop of washing up liquid in the final wash.
I dry my negs in the shower, but first I let it run for a few minutes. The condensation takes out most particles in the air.
I dry my negs in the shower, but first I let it run for a few minutes. The condensation takes out most particles in the air.
FrozenInTime
Well-known
It would not cost you much to use de-ionised for the stop and fix ( as they are reused many times ) so that does dound like a good starting point.
Try longer washing (not the water saving ilford method) - in regular tap water, then a final few rinses in de-ionised/photo-flo.
I've never had a problem with photo-flo, but I always hand vertically in a durst UT-100 film tent. This flows air down the negatives. Try looking for a second hand film dryer or improvise one. Hanging horizontally or diagonally will let the water sit - and could well be the main cause of water marks.
Try longer washing (not the water saving ilford method) - in regular tap water, then a final few rinses in de-ionised/photo-flo.
I've never had a problem with photo-flo, but I always hand vertically in a durst UT-100 film tent. This flows air down the negatives. Try looking for a second hand film dryer or improvise one. Hanging horizontally or diagonally will let the water sit - and could well be the main cause of water marks.
Matus
Well-known
Ronald makes a good point - drying you negatives in not too dry air (bathroom is optimal) eliminates most of the dust that could set on your negatives. I do it that way too.
Actually I did get a water stain once - I manage to splash a few water drops on my negatives while I was actually taking a shower and it was very obvious I did NOT take a shower in a distilled water ...
Actually I did get a water stain once - I manage to splash a few water drops on my negatives while I was actually taking a shower and it was very obvious I did NOT take a shower in a distilled water ...
btgc
Veteran
being practical (did I hear - chapskate?) I also tried this. How do you add this drop? First I tried to add drop into filled bucket - hmm, not much foam. Second time I added drop in empty bucket and then filled it with tap water - single drop made lot of foam, and I kept film there for about 30-45 secs. Latter method seemed to leave some minor stain, though much much better that first approach.
How do you do with dish washing detergent?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Vicky,
There's little advantage in using deionzised water for stop and fix -- after all, fixer had plenty of solids dissolved in it! -- and hard water washes better than soft. I live in a VERY hard water area and wash (Ilford sequence) in tap water followed by two deionized washes, the first with just water (3-5 min) and the second with about half the recommended amount of wetting agent (1 min). Less than half, and its homeopathic; the full amount, or more, and I find it leaves stains in its own right.
For some reason, deionized water is often silly-expensive in England compared with the USA or even France.
Wetting agent looks expensive but lasts half way to forever because you use it in such tiny quantities. I bought a litre of Agfa (?Agepon) wetting agent about a decade ago and still have more than half of it left.
Cheers,
R.
There's little advantage in using deionzised water for stop and fix -- after all, fixer had plenty of solids dissolved in it! -- and hard water washes better than soft. I live in a VERY hard water area and wash (Ilford sequence) in tap water followed by two deionized washes, the first with just water (3-5 min) and the second with about half the recommended amount of wetting agent (1 min). Less than half, and its homeopathic; the full amount, or more, and I find it leaves stains in its own right.
For some reason, deionized water is often silly-expensive in England compared with the USA or even France.
Wetting agent looks expensive but lasts half way to forever because you use it in such tiny quantities. I bought a litre of Agfa (?Agepon) wetting agent about a decade ago and still have more than half of it left.
Cheers,
R.
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EliasK
Well-known
Do not add photo-flo at the 20 inversions washing. This will create a lot of bubbles. After the final 20 inversions, drain, open the tank, refill with de-ionised water and add a couple of drops of photo-flo. Do not agitate, just rotate the spirals a bit, try not to make any bubbles. Leave it for 1-2 min. Remove the spirals carefully and let the film dry in a humid environment for as long as it takes. Humidity removes dust particles from air and gives time to the water to drain from the film surface and not evaporate on it leaving marks. Slow drying also helps to minimize film curling.
I don't think wiping the film by any means is a good idea.
Hope this helps.
I don't think wiping the film by any means is a good idea.
Hope this helps.
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mfunnell
Shaken, so blurred
I don't have a problem with hard water, but I've found I've achieved better results by doing these things, rather than the various alternatives:
- avoiding stop-bath and just rinsing repeatedly in tap water at developer temp
- fixing at lower dilution (1:9 rather than 1:5) and not re-using it (also at dev temp)
- rinsing thoroughly (many, many times) with tap water (1st at dev temp, then not)
- final rinse with demineralised water
- don't sponge, just let it dry
- "steam up" the bathroom before hanging the negs to dry (vertically)
- avoiding photo-flo
- using compressed air for a final dust before scanning (I don't wet-print)
Not all may be necessary, because I didn't change only one thing at a time. And, of course, YMMV. My results aren't perfect by any stretch, but they're a great deal better than they were at first.
...Mike
- avoiding stop-bath and just rinsing repeatedly in tap water at developer temp
- fixing at lower dilution (1:9 rather than 1:5) and not re-using it (also at dev temp)
- rinsing thoroughly (many, many times) with tap water (1st at dev temp, then not)
- final rinse with demineralised water
- don't sponge, just let it dry
- "steam up" the bathroom before hanging the negs to dry (vertically)
- avoiding photo-flo
- using compressed air for a final dust before scanning (I don't wet-print)
Not all may be necessary, because I didn't change only one thing at a time. And, of course, YMMV. My results aren't perfect by any stretch, but they're a great deal better than they were at first.
...Mike
nickdando
Established
I've just started using a Jobo CPP-2 with lift that I bought about seven years ago, brand new. I've been developing Ilford FP-4 plus in Ilfotec HC, Agfa Agefix, Tetenal Indicet, water, Ilford Washaid, water and finally Ilford Ilfotol. The Ilfotol is a recent addition as i was getting water marks, too. i squeegee the negatives using my fingers, as I can't find my old squeegee at the moment, and the rubber's probably perished in the meantime!
I hang the negatives using some old plastic coat hangers with clips on them that held trousers, and then I hang them in a little used wardrobe.
The negatives that had the water marks on them have been treated with a soak and then Ilfotol, with some success. But, and this has been on only one set of six negatives so far, I've also used Fotospeed FC50 Film Cleaner to gently wipe the marks away using a lint-free cloth. It seems, on this initial test, to work very well.
Nick
I hang the negatives using some old plastic coat hangers with clips on them that held trousers, and then I hang them in a little used wardrobe.
The negatives that had the water marks on them have been treated with a soak and then Ilfotol, with some success. But, and this has been on only one set of six negatives so far, I've also used Fotospeed FC50 Film Cleaner to gently wipe the marks away using a lint-free cloth. It seems, on this initial test, to work very well.
Nick
ChrisN
Striving
I'll add my thoughts here too, as I was also suffering the same problems and eventually worked out a workflow that works for me.
The critical bit (for me) is the final rinse. I use a small tub with two litres of tap water (my tap water is pretty good) with the recommended concentration of Photo-Flo - that's 1 in 200 or 10ml in 2 litres. I know that is more than some members here use and recommend, but it is the ratio recommended by Kodak, and I find it works for me. I'd recommend you start from there. I avoid foaming by measuring the 10ml, then slowly lowering the measure into the tub, then slowly, gently swirling it about to mix.
I gently lower the reel with the film into the rinse water tub, then let it sit for one minute. Then I start to remove the neg strip from the reel, and attach the weighted clip. I strip the neg strip from the reel, and attach the second clip. Holding the clips in each hand, separated, and with the emulsion side down, I dip one clip into the rinse tub, and let a loop of the film pass through the rinse water, lowering one hand and raising the other, moving the film so the entire length slowly passes through the rinse water. Repeat twice - the idea is to get the entire film evenly and generously wetted with rinse water. Then I lift the film with the top clip uppermost and stretch it out at 45 degrees from the vertical and with the film all in the vertical plane so that most of the water drains off into the lower perforations. I hold it up like that for as long as I can (to drain off as much water as possible from the surface of the negatives and into the perforated edge), then I hang it up in the shower recess.
I will reuse the rinse water if I'm developing several films in one session, but I discard it after that. Don't try to keep it - I found stuff grows in there and gets on the film! Rinse your developing reels afterwards in plenty of hot water to remove any residue.
I do my developing late in the evening so the film can dry undisturbed overnight, and the disturbance of the air around the film is minimised. That way I don't rush the drying, and it is properly dry before scanning.
I still consider myself a novice in this department, but the last 50 or so films I've developed and rinsed this way have all been perfect with no water marks at all. Once you find a workflow that works for you discipline yourself to not taking shortcuts or getting lazy - that's what caused my earlier problems!
The critical bit (for me) is the final rinse. I use a small tub with two litres of tap water (my tap water is pretty good) with the recommended concentration of Photo-Flo - that's 1 in 200 or 10ml in 2 litres. I know that is more than some members here use and recommend, but it is the ratio recommended by Kodak, and I find it works for me. I'd recommend you start from there. I avoid foaming by measuring the 10ml, then slowly lowering the measure into the tub, then slowly, gently swirling it about to mix.
I gently lower the reel with the film into the rinse water tub, then let it sit for one minute. Then I start to remove the neg strip from the reel, and attach the weighted clip. I strip the neg strip from the reel, and attach the second clip. Holding the clips in each hand, separated, and with the emulsion side down, I dip one clip into the rinse tub, and let a loop of the film pass through the rinse water, lowering one hand and raising the other, moving the film so the entire length slowly passes through the rinse water. Repeat twice - the idea is to get the entire film evenly and generously wetted with rinse water. Then I lift the film with the top clip uppermost and stretch it out at 45 degrees from the vertical and with the film all in the vertical plane so that most of the water drains off into the lower perforations. I hold it up like that for as long as I can (to drain off as much water as possible from the surface of the negatives and into the perforated edge), then I hang it up in the shower recess.
I will reuse the rinse water if I'm developing several films in one session, but I discard it after that. Don't try to keep it - I found stuff grows in there and gets on the film! Rinse your developing reels afterwards in plenty of hot water to remove any residue.
I do my developing late in the evening so the film can dry undisturbed overnight, and the disturbance of the air around the film is minimised. That way I don't rush the drying, and it is properly dry before scanning.
I still consider myself a novice in this department, but the last 50 or so films I've developed and rinsed this way have all been perfect with no water marks at all. Once you find a workflow that works for you discipline yourself to not taking shortcuts or getting lazy - that's what caused my earlier problems!
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Matus
Well-known
I can only second to the detailed description of ChrisN above - I do it in nearly exactly same way (I just use a different photo-flo). It really works.
Roger Vadim
Well-known
That really sorted my problems as well: final rinse with some washing agent + destilated water for about 30 second.
then most important:
use the shower, or bathroom and let really hot water steam up the whole room. I use my fingers to gently squeege the film. hang the whole roll horizontally!
really really helped!!
try it!
sepiareverb
genius and moron
Your Photo Flo type bath in distilled water (I use Sprint End Run), usually with half the recommended amount of stock solution followed by a Photo Wipe (Tidi Products #911898) works wonders. Nobody ever seems to believe that they work, but they do. I have only had dust or marks of any kind on film a couple of times in 25 years, including two years running films in an adobe house with a traditional stick & mud ceiling.
At work we have very minerally water and this has completely eliminated our problems with water marks & white staining, even using Kodak Photo Flo which we have a lot of in stock.
At work we have very minerally water and this has completely eliminated our problems with water marks & white staining, even using Kodak Photo Flo which we have a lot of in stock.
Lilserenity
Well-known
First of all, can I just say a big heart-felt thank you to everyone who replied. I have read every word here and it has been encouraging to say the least. I'm someone who is passionate about film, because it gives in black and white and colour an aesthetic that I like more than digital. However, the whole mess my negs end up in sometimes really does knock my 'faith' in it a bit. So first and foremost, I went into developing my next roll of FP4+ with great hope.
As I am tired, and need to sleep, I can't reply to everyone personally tonight, but I am emphatically grateful for every word of advice.
As Roger alluded, my biggest issue is that in England, it seems that de-ionised/distilled water seems ludicrously expensive (£3.49 for 5l) so I have to be sparing, I'm not rich and I have to budget each month so I can't fritter the stuff away down the drain. But I have been more liberal tonight.
Using a combination of recommendations, I first switched to D-76 (rather back to) after fiddling with Xtol which is very good but I like sharper negs, especially with the classic emulsions (PanF, FP4+ and TriX.)
I pre-soaked the roll for about 10 mins in de-ionised water, developed, and used the same stop and fixer which I re-use. I keep the latter two for about 7 days and then get rid as that seems a reasonable life-span, as I will do 2 rolls a week with that, plus some prints as well. As noted the stop and fixer are mixed with tap water. I stuck with that for now.
After developing, I rinsed again 10mins with running tap water. During that I switched on the shower and let the room steam up. After 10mins I did 20 inversions with de-ionised water, emptied. Filled a container with some de-ionised water, no idea how much. probably 250-300ml, a drop of photo-flo and put the reel in, swirled the reel gently, and then after that unwound the neg strip, attached two clips and draped the entire roll as advised in a up and down motion twice so the whole length of the negative was doused in de-ionised water + photoflo.
Then handled the neg strip for a while at roughly 45 degrees to let surface water run off and have it a few 'snaps' tp get large beads of water off.
It is now hanging vertically in the bathroom, door closed, window shut and it's very humid in there!
I'm now off to bed and shan't disturb the negs, I usually don't anyway. I tend to dry overnight all the time, which gives 8hrs drying which I have found sufficient to get the negs dry nicely.
I will find out in the morning if things have improved. I expect them to have, whether it will solve the issue, we will find out and go from there.
ONce again thank you deeply for all of your replies. I will post some results tomorrow.
Funnily, I find printing much easier than developing negatives (Well, the whole getting FB prints flat, well developed etc. I find very easy compared to the whole drying negatives without big large marks etc.)
Attached is an example negative I developed last night, it's probably the worst of the whole lot (and not a great photo anyway) but you can see that at the very worst end of the spectrum, I have had real troubles and we're not just talking a little fleck (we're talking those and then some!)
Thanks
Vicky
As I am tired, and need to sleep, I can't reply to everyone personally tonight, but I am emphatically grateful for every word of advice.
As Roger alluded, my biggest issue is that in England, it seems that de-ionised/distilled water seems ludicrously expensive (£3.49 for 5l) so I have to be sparing, I'm not rich and I have to budget each month so I can't fritter the stuff away down the drain. But I have been more liberal tonight.
Using a combination of recommendations, I first switched to D-76 (rather back to) after fiddling with Xtol which is very good but I like sharper negs, especially with the classic emulsions (PanF, FP4+ and TriX.)
I pre-soaked the roll for about 10 mins in de-ionised water, developed, and used the same stop and fixer which I re-use. I keep the latter two for about 7 days and then get rid as that seems a reasonable life-span, as I will do 2 rolls a week with that, plus some prints as well. As noted the stop and fixer are mixed with tap water. I stuck with that for now.
After developing, I rinsed again 10mins with running tap water. During that I switched on the shower and let the room steam up. After 10mins I did 20 inversions with de-ionised water, emptied. Filled a container with some de-ionised water, no idea how much. probably 250-300ml, a drop of photo-flo and put the reel in, swirled the reel gently, and then after that unwound the neg strip, attached two clips and draped the entire roll as advised in a up and down motion twice so the whole length of the negative was doused in de-ionised water + photoflo.
Then handled the neg strip for a while at roughly 45 degrees to let surface water run off and have it a few 'snaps' tp get large beads of water off.
It is now hanging vertically in the bathroom, door closed, window shut and it's very humid in there!
I'm now off to bed and shan't disturb the negs, I usually don't anyway. I tend to dry overnight all the time, which gives 8hrs drying which I have found sufficient to get the negs dry nicely.
I will find out in the morning if things have improved. I expect them to have, whether it will solve the issue, we will find out and go from there.
ONce again thank you deeply for all of your replies. I will post some results tomorrow.
Funnily, I find printing much easier than developing negatives (Well, the whole getting FB prints flat, well developed etc. I find very easy compared to the whole drying negatives without big large marks etc.)
Attached is an example negative I developed last night, it's probably the worst of the whole lot (and not a great photo anyway) but you can see that at the very worst end of the spectrum, I have had real troubles and we're not just talking a little fleck (we're talking those and then some!
)Thanks
Vicky
Attachments
mwooten
light user
One other thing you can try is to use a Brita water pitcher to filter your house water to mix with your chemicals. If it doesn't work, then you'll have filtered water to drink.
--michael
--michael
MarkoKovacevic
Well-known
I use distilled water mixed with photoflo for a final step after washing, and hang film in my bathroom after running the shower and getting everything humid and steamy.
Steveh
Well-known
Vicky - been there, done that with the hard water and the expensive UK de-ionised water. I had severe problems with exactly the same kind of mineral stains until I followed some of the tips on here, and what worked for me was really just adding an extra step to my workflow, which is the de-ionised water plus photoflo as the final step several other people have mentioned.
I use normal tap water for the chemicals and all the rinses up to the last, and as Roger says I'd be sceptical how much benefit using de-ionised water adds for those stages. I often let the final rinse water get quite foamy and it seems to work fine - what I do always do though is use (wet) fingers to "squeegee" the negs before I hang them up to - I assume the mineral stains come from water drying on the negs rather than flowing off them, so having quite "soapy" water in the final rinse and removing as much of it as possible before you hang the negs seemed to make sense to me. I'd never let a plastic squeegee within a million miles of my negs though!
I do the shower stuff as well but if your main problem is water marks not dust then that's probably a red herring. Do try the "finger squeegee" thing if you still have problems - your fingers are very sensitive to dust/grit so you're unlikely to do much damage, and I've not had a single water mark on my negs since I started doing it.
Good luck!
I use normal tap water for the chemicals and all the rinses up to the last, and as Roger says I'd be sceptical how much benefit using de-ionised water adds for those stages. I often let the final rinse water get quite foamy and it seems to work fine - what I do always do though is use (wet) fingers to "squeegee" the negs before I hang them up to - I assume the mineral stains come from water drying on the negs rather than flowing off them, so having quite "soapy" water in the final rinse and removing as much of it as possible before you hang the negs seemed to make sense to me. I'd never let a plastic squeegee within a million miles of my negs though!
I do the shower stuff as well but if your main problem is water marks not dust then that's probably a red herring. Do try the "finger squeegee" thing if you still have problems - your fingers are very sensitive to dust/grit so you're unlikely to do much damage, and I've not had a single water mark on my negs since I started doing it.
Good luck!