Stop bath question..

[orenrcohen]

I've been having persistent though random pinholes developing Kodak Tri-X 400 120. Discussed the problem in an earlier post. It has been suggested to me that the cause may be the stop bath.. Looking to rule this out so I'd like to use water instead.. I've pretty much used stop bath as long as I can remember though and have forgotten proper best practice for using water in it's place.. can anyone clue me in? Will one minute in water suffice? suggestions will be appreciated..


Happy New Year all Happy 2011!!!!


Oren

 

[Austerby]

I usually use stop bath for a minute, but if I do use plain water then I generally invert the tank several times over a couple of minutes, and with a change of water part way through.

My understanding is that the purpose of this step is to both halt the developer action promptly and to rinse away any remaining developer so it does not contaminate the fixer.

 

[pau3]

Are you sure that the pinholes are caused by the stop bath? It has never happened
to me and I always use stop bath.

Best,
Pau

 

[imokruok]

I would say at least three minutes in water with normal agitation, and changing the water a couple of times. I've only done it a few times, but it's worked for me.

If you want to try another stop bath, I just use 1 part white vinegar to 4 parts water. Never had a pinhole problem with that.

 

[Requin]

Hi Pau3,

I've seen your avatar. What's your relation with Bultaco? Just curious.

 

[user237428934]

Stopbath is around 4-5 EUR for a 1l bottle. At that price I don't even think about a cheaper solution.

 

[Rob-F]

Oren, do you tap the developing tank to dislodge air bells?

 

[Fawley]

I wonder what developer you are useing. I have read that a strong stop bath solution can cause pinholes if it follows a fairly strong developer. I normally use a stop bath myself. I tried Acufine developer recently which uses a strong accelerator (sodium carbonate); I noticed a few pinholes which was a problem I hadn't had previously, then when I looked at the Acufine directions, they specifically said to use a water stop.

If you are concerned with maintaining fixer life, you could use a water rinse followed by stop bath. This is the procedure recommended by Eddie Ephraums in one of his books. He states that an overly strong stop bath can cause reticulation or pin holes. He uses the stop to keep his fixer fresh.

I still use Ilford's Ilfostop(citric acid) rather than the stronger acetic acid with all developer except Acufine.

 

[degruyl]

I surely can't be the only person who never uses stop for film. I use a water rinse (1 minute, continuous agitation). I do use stop for paper. I generally use rodinal 1+50, which may or may not have an impact on this decision. (I also use water stop with D76 1+1, without any noticeable effect on the developing).

Note: without the agitation to reduce the concentration of dev on the film / in the emulsion, this would result in compensating development and can be stood around for a while to increase shadow details and reduce contrast. I remain partially unconvinced as to the utility, though.

 

[mfogiel]

In my opinion, the simplest thing is to skip the stop bath - acidic or water - altogether. If you use fresh fixer, it is superfluous to use the stop bath for processing, unless you really have to deal with very short development times in big tanks - where you move the reels from the developer to stop bath in one move. I have been using only developer and fixer for a couple of years now, and it works perfectly. Should you still get pinholes with certain films, the remedy could be to use an alkaline fixer, instead of the acidic one.

 

[orenrcohen]

I'm using rodinal.. 1 + 50 1+ 75 also 1 + 100. If I forgo stop bath in favor of 1 or 2 minutes agitation in water, can I re-use my fixer for film?

 

[zenlibra]

I have never used a stop bath in two years of development. Just water and constant inversion for a few minutes. I mostly use Rodinal and HC-110 (B) though I have used Ilford DD-X as well.

 

[Freakscene]

Neopan 400 in Rodinal with an acid stop bath pretty consistently goes awry. Tri-X, however, is about as tough as film gets, but the holes could be caused by the acid-base reaction making small areas of the emulsion lift. Are you sure they are holes not areas with no development? Try using water and see what happens. otherwise, tap to dislodge or consider using a pe-soak (I don't normally recommend one but I also don't have problems with bubbles).

Marty

 

[tlitody]

stop bath can cause gas bubbles. Usually happens with prints if the stop is too strong. I use a 1 to 1.5% acetic acid solution and never had a problem. But to do that you need to know what the percentage your stop bath solution is to start with. The Ilford botlled stuff doesn't tell you.
If you can get hold of it, Fuji sell 5 litre bottles of 60% acetic acid to mini labs. You can dilute down from that and know exactly what you are using. I dilute down to 25% and use that as stock for mixing working solution. And its dirt cheap. Much cheaper than the usual small bottles except you have to buy 5 litres at a time.

Stop bath will kill development instantly. Washing with water won't so the time between dev and fix becomes significant as development will continue if there is still developer in the emulsion. So if you are going to use water, then just give one quick rinse and then straight into fix which will kill development instantly (assuming you are using an acid fixer). But the fixer won't last so long if you are reusing it. With one shot fixing you shouldn't have a problem.

 

[Chris101]

I surely can't be the only person who never uses stop for film. ...

I follow HC110 development with two cycles of: water in, invert 3 times and water out. It takes exactly one minute.

The exact process is less important than is consistency in doing whatever you do. Experimenting by only a single variable at a time is a good idea.

 

[Fraser]

I fill the tank once with water a couple of inversions dump then straight in with the fix, takes about 10 seconds never had any bother.

 

[MikeL]

The exact process is less important than is consistency in doing whatever you do. Experimenting by only a single variable at a time is a good idea.

What Chris said. I agitate with water for a minute and keep the time between pouring out developer and adding fixer consistent.

I reuse fixer, testing with cut-off film leaders till fix-time doubles. After dumping fixer in the processing tank, I just add a small film piece to the extra fixer in my bottle, and use the clear-time to determine fix-time in the tank (~2x). My fixer lasts quite awhile with the 1 minute agitation in water after development.

 

[Tom A]

Older film types are less prone to pinholes than modern, thin emulsion films. Personally I never use stop-bath for film, just a quick rinse with water (30-45 sec) and then fix.
The stop bath does what it implies - it stops development. If you are using strong concentration - those extra seconds in the water only still can produce some development action - but with most standard dilution, the effect is insignificant.
The main reason for the stop is to extend the life of the fixer - and there it might make a difference.
I use KodaFix ( mix up a gallon of it and keep track of the volume of film). Kodak claims about 80 rolls of 35mm/gallon - I err on the side of caution and do 60 rolls in it (or a month - whichever comes first). have done this for as long as I can remember and develop/water/fix has never given me a problem.
In printing it is another story altogether - there the stopbath is important - particularly with fiber based papers as a lot of developer soaks into the base and the straight water rinse does not wash it out sufficiently - which is why double fixing is critical for archival prints.

 

[tyrone.s]

I'm using rodinal.. 1 + 50 1+ 75 also 1 + 100. If I forgo stop bath in favor of 1 or 2 minutes agitation in water, can I re-use my fixer for film?

Hi, yes you can. I often use these combinations of Rodinal, wash with water agitating for a minute or 3 and frequently rinsing out and dumping the water. I reuse my fixer (illford) that I keep in an airtight bottle in the sink cupboard (keep in the dark).

To test the fixer is still working effectively I cut a small strip of film - like the leader and drop it into the fixer and time how long it takes to go clear. Usually a few minutes. I then fix the film I've developed for a bit longer. But don't over fix either - if the film clears in 3 minutes I'd do 6 minutes for example.

I then return the fixer to the container - a plastic softdrink bottle - and squeeze it a bit to make sure the fixer is right up to the top. I then screw on the lid.

Rinse the negatives and hang to dry.

I recently discarded some 500 mls of fixer after 6 months reuse. The inside of the bottle had gone black - but the fixer was still clear after dozens of rolls. Of the last lot I'd developed I actually left a roll hanging for weeks and then I scanned it . I noted that the negs were fine - as in fixed and hadn't darkened any more, etc. So I assume my fixer was still doing it's job after many reuses.

Sorry for the long respsonse - but I've tried to paint a picture as it were. But this is what I do and it seems to work OK for me. Oh, I have stop bath but never bother to use it anymore.

Cheers

Tyrone

 

[RayPA]

What Chris said. I agitate with water for a minute and keep the time between pouring out developer and adding fixer consistent.

What Mike said. I agitate with water for a minute and a half with a change at ~40s and keep the time between pouring out developer and adding fixer consistent. 😉

When I've used stop (Kodak Indicator), I never had an issue with it. I don't use it, because it is not recommended with the fixer that I use. I doubt I will ever go back to using it, because using it to stop development is a kind of like killing an ant with a sledge hammer. It works really really well, but it is way more force than necessary.



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