Street Photography: Are set-ups and poses ever permissable?

[Koolzakukumba]

Arriving at street photography after years of landscape work, I've been looking at lots of images to get a handle on this genre. The conclusion I've reached is that some (many?) of the really memorable shots may have been posed.

The likes of Walker Evens and Weegee are known to have done it but I also think that some of the "decisive moments" caught by the likes of Cartier Bresson may not have have happened entirely by chance.

Take the great Henri's photograph, The Palais Royale (attached). There are really only two places where human figures would have stood out in this shot and Cartier Bresson has filled them both. Not only that, but he had caught them both-as he liked to do-in mid-stride.

Now, I'll concede it's possible that he picked up his camera, saw this arrangement straight away and managed to capture it. That would, indeed, be a decisive moment. It's also possible that he spotted the potential for this photograph and simply hung around until he got it.

What can't be discounted, though, is that he asked two mates to pose for him. It's curious that the two people in the picture should both be males and, judging as best I can, about the same age as Cartier Bresson would have been at the time. We'll probably never know if this was set-up or not and it could just be the cynical newspaper hack in me that has arrived at this conclusion.

Nevertheless, it raises the question, "If it's good enough for Cartier Bresson, is it good enough for me?" It's a particularly apposite subject as I've seen a couple of potentially good photographs but have hever yet managed to capture the right configuration of people in the right place. It would be easy for me to place friends in the shot but is that ethical?

So, should I go for it and keep quiet or keep hanging around until-if ever-it happens?

Bruce

 

[Justin Low]

If you photograph for your own enjoyment, then really, it's up to you to decide.

If you photograph for the enjoyment of those who do not appreciate posed shots, don't tell them if the shot is indeed posed.

Or you could just go all the way and recruit passers-by on the street for your 'performance'.

I know this doesn't really answer your question, but I think that the "ethics" of an image are determined by the audience.

 

[J. Borger]

W. Eugene Smith even staged a lot of his "photo-journalistic" shots ... he even hired actors, a herd of sheeps etc.
In the more modern times Lorca di Corcia stages all his streetscenes.

Only you can decide if it is ethical ...... you can fool everybody but yourself ... so ask yourself what gives you most satisfaction .. capturing the decisive moment or staging a shot to get a fantastic picture.

Han

 

[taffer]

Take Doisneau, for instance (my personal favorite), many, if no most of his shots are posed, but IMHO that doesn't substract anything from them of from what they transmit. If an image is powerful, it really doesn't matter, and will matter even less in 50 years.

And btw, the 'decisive moment' was a marketing invention from the editor, HCB never had that title in mind 🙂

 

[aizan]

if you want to, who's to stop you?

 

[bmattock]

The famous flag-raising on Mt. Suribachi was a posed recreation. That does not change it's iconic value to the American public, or it's reputation as a 'news' photo.

Although there are prohibitions on straight news-gathering photography, I see no reason that the photographer should not have full control over his or her palette of tools in all other respects. The result is the point, not what was done to arrive at that result.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[varjag]

The answer largely depends on your definition of street photography. If it is purely documentary "homo sapiens in their natural habitat" then staging equals to stuffed tigers in safari shots. OTOH if you don't present it as documentary work then it is hard to imagine any objections to this approach.

 

[saxshooter]

Rosenthal's flag raising picture at Iwo Jima was not posed. This was a miscommunication between him and the AP editors. When they received the pictures and told him "Great photo" he said that it was posed, but he thought the editors were referring to a group shot that was in the same film shipment.

http://www.ap.org/pages/about/pulitzer/rosenthal.html

 

[Roman]

As has been mentioned, Doisneau did it, W.Eugen Smith did it (an he even retouched some negs extensively to change the message of a picture), Brassai did it, and, yes, HCB also did it - ther is this picture of some stairs in a Greek down, with a girl running up, and that girl was the daughter of someone he knew, and he asked her to run up there to add interest; also, that famous pic with the man jumping across a puddle is said to have been staged.
It's OK, as long as you don't openly pretend that the pics were NOT staged.

Roman

 

[Koolzakukumba]

My gut instinct is that street photography should be entirely honest and above board. Otherwise, the photographer isn't so much documenting what's taking place around him as staging a mini theatrical performance.

I suppose the difficulty is that it's possible to spend a long time taking lots of street photographs for very little return. How much easier it is to pick a background and arrange the human elements against it.

Given a copious amount of time, I'd probably try to get the shots I'm after the "natural" way but since I have hardly any time to devote to photography, it might be better to get out the model release forms!

Bruce

 

[Beniliam]

And btw, the 'decisive moment' was a marketing invention from the editor, HCB never had that title in mind

This is true. The quote of decisive moment its a bad translate of images a la sauvette. The first compilation of photos of HCB was this tittle. And the translation its aprox. imagen quickly, fast, almost without thinking... I see one video of cartier worked, and its certain he worked very fast. Walked between the people, and never the subject can see Henri.

I love the work of Doisneau too. For me, the power of the Doisneau images are the true feel that you see in the photos. The kids around the poor zones of Paris, the photos of the cafes, the kiss in the barricade, all are magic. And whats the matter about if in some photos the photograph make the person posed?

I never make photos with posed but, I like photos that appear natural and in ocassions, photo posed are more natural than the spontaneus

 

[Bertram2]

What is street shooting ? A invention of amateurs ?

What is street shooting ? A invention of amateurs ?

So, should I go for it and keep quiet or keep hanging around until-if ever-it happens?

Bruce

We know that among the famous names there have been photogs who shot posed photos, the famous "Kiss" of Doisneau was one of them as we learned recently . He was told to deliver "Paris feeling" by Rapho and so he did it and got paid well for it.
OTHERS have said later that this is "street" photography, Doisneau did not ever use this word afaik , he took pics and sold them to make his living and you can like them or not. And I think in principle you can say that for all the famous "street shooters".

I believe "street photography " is a publisher or amateur word, invented as an artistic category, and it is used and abused always depending on how the amateurs understanding of the task is, and this understanding is very often poor or simply wrong.
Some shoot people's backs in a crowd, others shoot folks standing around by chance thus trying to hide that they have no vision, , others violate the human dignity of beggars sleeping drunk in the gutters of a big city.
But of course that has all nothing to do with the original idea, which mainly means to bring home some timeslices of life which tell something about the human beeing.
Of course that's very difficult to do and most fail because it is not just another photographical metier like architecture ot landscape, but something you must personally BE before you can burn it on film.
It depends on your personal character, if you are optimistic or pessimistic, if you get in contact easily with other people, if you are communucative and tough or shy and introverted, if you focus on the positive side or more on the problem issues.
And you must be able to act as part of the scene, not as a photog stepping into it to shoot pics.
Before dealing with "street" one should think about all that carefully and, one has to develop a clear vision of what's the personal target. Without any concept it does not work, the old story.
Up 'til today i could not find out i ever could be a good "street shooter", I still have doubts if I am the right person for it. Some nice results were more or less a gift by chance, no reason to think I have any talent for that.

My recommendation is first make a concept, find out what kind of pics you want to make and than find a method HOW to do it , that's the "part of the scene" issue i mentioned above..

Best,
Bertram








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[bmattock]

Rosenthal's flag raising picture at Iwo Jima was not posed. This was a miscommunication between him and the AP editors. When they received the pictures and told him "Great photo" he said that it was posed, but he thought the editors were referring to a group shot that was in the same film shipment.

http://www.ap.org/pages/about/pulitzer/rosenthal.html

That is a fascinating story, thank you! And I'm a Marine, too - I should have known that, but somehow did not.

As a Jarhead, we were always told that it was the second flag-raising, and that it was done so that the picture could be taken with a larger flag. I seem to recall having seen a nearly-identical photo that was taken with the smaller flag at that time, but my memory of it is dim.

So it would seem that we're talking a bit of semantics here - it *was* the second flag-raising and not the first, but it was *not* staged by Rosenthal. Fair enough, I'm good with that. But frankly, I didn't have a problem with it the other way, either. It's iconic, memorable, and frankly, one of the most worthy photographs I've ever seen.

Now the story of Ira Hayes, which is intertwined with that flag raising - that's a bit sadder.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[Sean Reid]

First off, I agree with Garry Winogrand that there is no such thing as street photography. That said, photojournalism and certain kinds of documentary, medical, forensic, scientific, etc. photography (that purport to show things as they truly were w/o a photographer's intervention) shouldn't use "fake" events but otherwise I think one is free to make the pictures any way he or she wants. If the work is being made as visual art or for one's own enjoyment then the sky is the limit. That said, I don't pose my subjects but that's just my own preference. When you mentioned Evans and posing, which pictures are you thinking of? Brady's crew dragged dead bodies on Civil War battlefields around so as to rearrange them for better composition. The exact location of where a given man fell and died didn't seem immutable to Brady, he was (I believe) after pictures that would strike home.

Cheers,

Sean

 

[gns]

In the end, the picture is good or not regardless of how it was made or what the intentions of the maker were.

You should go about it in whatever way makes sense to you. Not according to some nonexistent rules.

 

[Koolzakukumba]

I only joined this forum a couple of weeks ago but can honestly say that I've learned more about street photography in the past hour looking through Beniliam's gallery than I have in a month surfing the 'net.

Ben (?), your gallery is absolutely superb. You have a great eye for a photograph and the fact that you say none of them is posed makes you my hero! I particularly liked Three (brilliantly spotted), Metrosolo2, No. 122 (the swimmers) and Hour (a bit cheeky, that one). I didn't have time to look at every one but will do so later.

The images in your gallery, in my opinion, stand alongside any of those from the recognised greats. I'm not normally given to sycophancy but it's good to recognise real talent when you see it.

It would be great if you could share some of your techniques and approaches when it comes to street photography, either on the forum or by emailing me. I'm sure I'd learn a lot but it might be a bit of a one-way exchange!

Bruce

 

[Jan Brittenson]

I like subjects to look at the camera or in some other way interact with the viewer. A perfect people photograph to me is one where the viewer feels connected to the subject and forgets the fact they're looking at a photograph. Maybe this is not "street photography", and certainly isn't of the HCB kind. (More like Paul Strand or Dorothea Lange.) Personally, I find the typical street fare rather clinical and detached.

 

[Jan Brittenson]

Oops, clicked the Post button when I meant Go Advanced. Anyway, I meant to also add that there's an "uncertainty principle" going on in voyeuristic photographs, there's no guarantee the subject isn't aware of the camera, and most people when aware they're watched behave differently, so there's no guarantee the photograph isn't staged to some extent. What HCB clearly aimed for was photographs that gave the impression of being unstaged.

 

[TPPhotog]

Sadly much of the magic and mystic of life has already been eroded, so at the end of the day it doesn't matter if the picture is staged or not. There are some that will believe it was captured as seen and others that will always maintain that it's stage whatever you do :bang:

Its your photography and you will have your own ideals as to how to work a shoot. Take them the way you want and leave everyone else to argue the toss as to if it was staged or not 😉

 

[back alley]

First off, I agree with Garry Winogrand that there is no such thing as street photography.

sean, what do you call it then?
or, how would you describe what one would 'normally' consider street shooting.

i walk around and take pics of what i see happening on the street, the interactions between people and things.
what would i call that?

joe