Super Ikonta BX Film Loading

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vondauster

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Hi Folks,

This is my first post to the RF Forum, thank you for your patience with a basic question. I've just acquired a beautiful Super Ikonta B MX, coated lens, working uncoupled meter, in its original leather case. Shutter works perfectly, the camera looks like it had almost never been used. Just one question: How does one properly load this thing? The tiny, shuttered window is high on the right side of the camera back and doesn't seem appropriate for number viewing. The advance is obviously designed to be automatic. I don't wish to damage this camera by guessing the procedure: can anyone help with this?

Thanks for any help with this...

Will
 
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Houdy Will,
congrats on your new S/Ikonta and welcome to this forum, no doubt if you do some searching there will be a heap of info on these hidden somewhere in the old posts.

i think yours is the same to load as mine.
the red window is in the postion that reads the numbers for 6x4.5 often (1 of 2 windows) but thats ok because its the first number you need to see only (number 1). same as for 6x6 with the window in the center

make sure the film counter dial is wound on until it doesnt stop at the numbers which may mean that you have to fire the shutter and wind on until its free (where it doesnt stop at the numbers). if you play around with it by dry fireing you will get an idea of how it works. just dont be ruff with the counter dial


then load the film (you know how to do this?) and wind it on untill you see the number 1 through the red window. close the window. turn the film counter dial until it is set at number 1. then simply shoot and use the winder film advance and it should stop at each number. sometimes these need some fixing as it doesnt workcorrectly, but yours sounds like its in good nik so hopefully alls well...dry testing should tell.

hope this helps
cheers
Andrew








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Is this the 6x6 version? There are several different Super Ikonta models in 6x6 that offered automatic frame spacing, but the load procedure is a bit different for each.

If you could tell us the model number, that would help a lot.

It will be embossed in the leather, on the back, vertically, either near the hinge or near the back latch.
 
You have what's known as the Super Ikonta BX, which gives 12 on 120, rather than the 11 on 120 of the earlier models (530/16 and 532/16).

To load film:

1) Open back. Takeup spool on the right, new spool on the left.

2) After sliding the film leader into the takeup spool, wind a few times until the arrows on the film backing line up with the two white dots on the film guides. Some people wind slightly past (maybe 1/2 inch or so).

3) Close the back. Next to the film advance knob/key is a small silver stud. Slide that to the left so the window next to it turns red. Red means loaded with film.

4) Continue turning the film advance, and it will automatically stop at frame 1.

5) Tension the shutter and take your photo. Turn the film advance, and it will automatically stop at 2. Continue through the rest of the roll.

6). After frame 12, wind on until you can hear the paper disconnect from the spool. The small red window should now be white. You can make sure that the film is free and clear by opening the small slider on the back while turning the advance. If you see no movement, you can open the back and remove the film. If you see some movement, continue winding. After a while, you get a feel for when the film comes free and you can hear a "flap-flap" as the trailing leader spins on the takeup spool.

The reason that people wind slightly past the dots is because of frame spacing. The feeling is that the older emulsions were thicker, and the frame spacing was better. With some cameras, you might find frames that butt up against each other.

Winding slightly past the white dots might give you better frame spacing. Or that's what the strategy is.

Oh, and the model number for this camera, I see now, is marked in the main part of the back.
 
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Thanks again for the great information! Loading sounds like a snap - I'll play with this when I get home this evening. Meanwhile I'll shot some digipix and try to get them posted today.

Will
 
fantastic but unusual looking Olympus digital camera you have there Will, an excellent copy of the S/Ikonta :D

JK of course it looks great, thanks for showing. i would be interested how you find the meter to use in a practical sence, whether its very accurate, or a bit off ect, whether you find the need to make some kind of allowance or not. some people dont use them at all, others may use them in some way. we dont often hear about them.

oh by the way thats one very nice serial number eh!!...i bet that sold ya lol
 
Some caveats about loading this camera

Some caveats about loading this camera

Hi,
I have an identical copy of this camera. You need to realize that the automatic frame spacing feature worked only with the Zeiss brand films that were available in the 1950s. Those films seemed to have a wooden spool that was fatter than today's current spools. With today's Kodak and Fuji emulsions the spools are thinner. As a result, your first 3-4 frames will end up overlapping, as the film will not have advanced far enough per wind.

Here's what I have found works for me. Get some narrow electrical tape: 1/4 inch would be ideal, but I've ended up slitting a 1/2 inch roll. Place the tape on each side of the take-up spool spindle, leaving the center slot clear. This fattens the take-up spool sufficiently to move more film through with each rotation.

Now thread the film into the slot, and wind until the arrow mark on the film goes past the white dot on the camera, and in fact to the edge of the camera body, just into the film take-up cavity. Doing this prevents your first frames from overlapping, but also prevents you from running out of film when you're shooting your 12th frame.

Best of luck on your new beauty. The lenses on these camera are incredibly good.
 
I also have the 530/2. I bought mine about three years ago or so. It was incredibly dusty but not damaged and cleaned up very nicely.

It's an excellent camera, and of course, the Tessar never disappoints.
 
Restoration methods

Restoration methods

Well, speaking of the 530/2, it is as you can see aesthetically challenged. If I wanted to remove some of the cosmetic rust, say on the folding cover, what might work best, and what sort of paint could one use to approximate the original glossy black?
 
vondauster said:
Well, speaking of the 530/2, it is as you can see aesthetically challenged. If I wanted to remove some of the cosmetic rust, say on the folding cover, what might work best, and what sort of paint could one use to approximate the original glossy black?
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there are a couple of paths you could take Will,
of course the first is just to leave it as it is and get used to the idea that she's seen better days. the brassing on the top looks ok to me, the rust on the front bed is somewhat unattractive as you say. the original paint was a nitrocelulose black laquer that dries quick and is very durable and glossy

as for painting there are two basic alternatives from my experiance so far. the most common route taken is to use an enamel (auto enamel in most cases works). some others here have done that fairly extensively such as FallisPhoto and will have tips no doubt.

some people would sand the paint/ rusted surfaces with progressively finer material until (idealy) perfectly smooth without removing any leather covering and simply masking up. others would peel back the edges or remove the covering to paint. the enamel takes some time to dry, lightly baking in a box with a 100 watt globe can help. also you would need to treat the rusted metal surface with a rust convertor product as well, just as you would if painting an automobile

if you just did the front door, it would tidy it up a bit but of course it would be apparent that it was done. it will look different to the rest

to repaint the camera properly is a big job (more than what people often think-and particularly for this camera) and there are limitations of what you can do concerning the struts, the top veiwfinder is difficult/fidely as well. after some searching i found a nitro.. black laquer that is made virtualy the same as the original, or so the old guy that makes it told me, with the exception that some modern subitutes for the celulose materials used back then (such as old neg film stocks ect) are employed instead. if you were to use this you would need to source it somewhere near where you are (hazchem/ hazmat shipping).

its advantages are that it looks original-glossy, easy to apply, dries quick and is far harder and more durable than enamel. the down side is its more dificult to obtain, more toxic-health risks (this shouldn't be under estimated) and much more expensive.

for a one off camera, its not really economical either, it would probably work out cheaper and easier to buy a camera in good condition to begin with. not counting, if you include what your time spent may be worth

you cant buy a tiny amount such as some people manage to do with enamel. additioaly you need some other preperation substances for the metal surfaces ect before the laquer goes on, as well as solvents/thinners. then you need an airbrush which is not the average (cheaper) airbrush either , it requires the teflon seals so it can be cleaned with the solvents. using enamel would still require the more expensive airbrush, unless you treat it as more or less disposable, as the thinners for it will still damage the seals in the airbrush sooner or later.
 
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Thanks for the extended info, Andrew. Upon further reflection (ahem), I believe I can live with the cosmetics for now. But someday I may want to get into more serious restoration of some of these very interesting devices. Cheers,

Will (in Boulder, Colorado, USA)
 
Sure Will, i didnt mean to scare you off it , but just wanted to paint the full picture so to speak (not a very god pun eh!). so often we hear how easy it is, but to do correctly is a bit more.

perhaps just for a (temp) patch job, and to stop any further rusting you could beg a thimble full of rust convertor from your local 'crash shop' or car panel beater place and maybe even a bit of gloss black paint... though you can get enamel in hobby size amounts
 
chippy said:
some people would sand the paint/ rusted surfaces with progressively finer material until (idealy) perfectly smooth without removing any leather covering and simply masking up.
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Really bad idea. If you are going to paint, you need to take all the leather off. Why? because it is a cinch that there is more rust under the edge of the leatherette, and (of course) there are going to be "Zeiss bumps" too. Rust doesn't stop unless you get it all. A few years down the road, the rust you left under the leatherette may start eating into the edges of the paint. Both Aki-Asahi and Camera Leather have an embossed calfskin that is a fairly close match for the leatherette, or (if you prefer something a lot better that looks closer to the original and if can cut your own) Fashion Leather International has an ebay store where they sell Italian goatskin leather (far more durable) that is a very close match.

vondauster said:
Well, speaking of the 530/2, it is as you can see aesthetically challenged. If I wanted to remove some of the cosmetic rust, say on the folding cover, what might work best, and what sort of paint could one use to approximate the original glossy black?
Click to expand...

Now for finishing rusty metal. First, you remove the leatherette and scrape off all the "Zeiss bumps." Next, with a rotary tool and a wire brush, remove all the rust and corrosion and all the paint. Give it a coat of "Naval Jelly" to get rid of any last remaining traces of rust. Apply a thin coat of clear nail polish over the exposed brass rivets, so the Zeiss bumps don't ever come back. You'll notice that the metal looks very lumpy, and it is pitted. Now you'll need to fill the pits. Go to an automotive store and get some "zinc rich" primer. Mask and spray with the primer. With very fine grit sandpaper, and some small sanding blocks, sand off the primer, leaving it where it is filling the pits.

Now you'll need an airbrush. You can find them dirt cheap on ebay. Enamels: Micro Tools sells "camera paint," or you can use an automotive grade high gloss enamel, or you can go to a hobby store and buy pretty much any brand of enamel used for painting metal models (not Testors brand, made for painting plastics). Thin it to 50% and spray it on in thin coats with your air brush. Let it dry and then put it into a small box with a 100-watt lightbulb for about 24 hours (to bake and harden the enamel). If you don't bake it, it will be too soft and it will scratch off with a fingernail. Alternatively, you can use epoxy appliance paint, or (if you can find it) lacquer. The non-enamel paints don't have to be baked.

Okay, now for releathering: if you were very careful taking the leatherette off, and if it came offf in one piece, you can just glue it back on. If the leatherette was destroyed during removeal though, which is often the case, then you will need to replace it. Both Aki-Asahi and Camera Leather sell a replacement embossed cowhide that looks like a fairly close match for the original leatherette but which is much higher quality. If you can cut your own, and if you want an even closer match, there is a company called Fashion Leather International that has an ebay store where they sell Italian goatskin leather (far more durable than any other conventional leather you can get). Look for the pieces labled .3mm to .5mm thick. Apply masking tape to the back of the leather (black ink on black leather doesn't show up very well) and lay out the cuts with a pen and a six-inch steel rule. Hobby stores sell circle templates in the drafting supplies section. Cut out the pieces of leather, glue them down with contact cement and you're done.
 
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FallisPhoto said:
Really bad idea. If you are going to paint, you need to take all the leather off. Why? because it is a cinch that there is more rust under the edge of the leatherette, and (of course) there are going to be "Zeiss bumps" too. Rust doesn't stop unless you get it all. A few years down the road, the rust you left under the leatherette may start eating into the edges of the paint.
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just trying to give an overview Charles of the different levels of remedies some people will go to, with the hope that it was clear enough, for Will, to figure out for himself what level of preperation would be needed for his s/ikonta, without me having to state for a fact. Which is why i lead to the 'to repaint the camera properly is a big job'

Overall i agree it best to start with the camera taken down as much as possible, which includes removing the leather or leatherette. its horses for courses though.

there can be exceptions; depending on the camera, its not always neccessary to remove the covering, sometimes there is just paint missing from the high points (rub marks) that exposes some metal that gets some bright marks and surface rust. In these instances removing the leatherette ect which probably can not be matched and may be in v/good condition does little to help, except it's easier to paint,. it has to be weighed up whether if removing the leatherette, it can be reused or not, or whether leaving the origianal on, or replacing it is better. Wills s/ikonts would obviously need a lot of work to make it in top condition. theres a good chance the covering can be reused though.
 
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chippy said:
just trying to give an overview Charles of the different levels of remedies some people will go to, with the hope that it was clear enough, for Will, to figure out for himself what level of preperation would be needed for his s/ikonta, without me having to state for a fact. Which is why i lead to the 'to repaint the camera properly is a big job'

Overall i agree it best to start with the camera taken down as much as possible, which includes removing the leather or leatherette. its horses for courses though.

there can be exceptions; depending on the camera, its not always neccessary to remove the covering, sometimes there is just paint missing from the high points (rub marks) that exposes some metal that gets some bright marks and surface rust. In these instances removing the leatherette ect which probably can not be matched and may be in v/good condition does little to help, except it's easier to paint,. it has to be weighed up whether if removing the leatherette, it can be reused or not, or whether leaving the origianal on, or replacing it is better. Wills s/ikonts would obviously need a lot of work to make it in top condition. theres a good chance the covering can be reused though.
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Looking at his camera specifically, the leatherette on the front door would have to be removed. I don't know whether that could be taken off in one piece, because of that beveled edge. I suspect it would break off where it is bent around that edge. I'd have to be prepared to replace at least that piece.

The rest of the body is aluminum though, and that you could just mask off. It would be a lot more difficult getting the chewed up paint off without removing the leatherette, but it could be done. I don't see any Zeiss bumps on the front (doesn't mean there aren't any, just that I can't see them in the photos), so there is no other compelling reason to remove the leatherette. Of course I can't see the back, so I don't know what is going on there.

To tell the truth though, that's pretty trivial. It takes a little time, but it is pretty easy and there is nothing to really sweat over. My main area of concern on his camera would be the bellows. That leather looks cracked all to hell, and if it looks that bad on a low res monitor ... well, ... it's a cinch that it's going to need replacing very soon, if it doesn't already -- and if I were betting, I'd say it does already. Now replacing bellows on a Zeiss, if you're going to do it properly, is one of those jobs people mean when they talk about sweating blood.

Zeiss put their cameras together so that it's really hard to get them apart again without damaging them. Those front and back body halves are held together with rivets and glue and the tripod socket goes through both. The socket is going to have to be modified in order to get it out.
 
I agree that if you wanted to repaint the body, you should remove all of the leather covering, the lens and probably the viewfinder/rangefinder assembly.

Strip it down it to shell, as much as possible.

Then clean the body of rust, light sanding, possibly a primer and then repaint.

Zeiss Ikon (not Zeiss) was a top-shelf maker of photographic equipment and built their cameras to a higher standard. Some parts were made to be serviced and are easily disassembled. The basic shell, however, was built with the intent that it wasn't to be serviced or replaced and therefore isn't easy to disassemble.

You have to approach it in this manner.

With few exceptions, there aren't any "rare" Zeiss Ikon cameras, so you always have to assess whether it's feasible or possible to restore a camera that is in poor condition.

Lord knows that I've tried to save cameras that couldn't be. At a certain point, you have to give up. Some cameras can be restored. Some can't. I probably have maybe 40 or 50 cameras that will never work correctly, no matter how much effort I put into them.

That always goes back to how cameras were handled by the previous owners. While it's well within their right to toss their cameras about carelessly, you don't want to be the poor ******* who buys it from them.
 
This is an interesting and very informative discussion, thank you.

The 530/2's bellows are light tight, I have used this clunker and it actually works very well. That being said, the bellows are tattered and could indeed give way at any time. The shutter assembly and lens are actually quite functional, the lens board free of wiggle, and the rangefinder accurate. So, it remains a fun camera, but one I probably will not attempt to restore myself.

Yesterday I picked up another Ikonta, a 521 (645 format) with a Zeiss Opton Tessar. I had bought this for $30, and had the shutter CLA'd. Can't wait to play with this diminutive puppy. Now, strictly speaking it doesn't have a rangefinder, so is it appropriate fodder for this forum?
 
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