OurManInTangier
An Undesirable
I'm sorry to dredge this age old topic up once again but I want to vent spleen ....again.
I have just got back from photographing a busy town to show how it has moved on positively after a series of murders last year. The client wanted to highlight how people are shopping, meeting friends, having coffee...all the things you would expect to see in a healthy and vibrant town or city. As I did this I shared many jokes, exhanged smiles and the occasional chat with a few interested individuals.
Unfortunately I also had to explain what I was doing to the Market Stall Official, the Street Warden and two police officers all at different times. Not one of whom, police included, knew the current UK law on privacy or the place of photography within that. This wouldn't be enough to annoy or anger me as I'm happy to explain so long as the party asking me the questions is civil, respectful and not unnecessarily officious.
However, all were rude, hostile, suspicious and demanded proof that I had permission to photograph in the area. I kept calm, open and as reasonable and friendly as possible whilst asking them a) from whom did they believe I needed permission b) for what reason did I need permission c) why they wanted to take my name, address and business name and finally why they wanted to store this on some kind of Palm Pilot device. I also pointed out that I had committed no Offence ( nor offence ) by my actions under current UK Law.
The police, thankfully, were the least interested and most easily dealt with. The Market Official and the Street Warden however both seemed to believe that I was breaking the law and that they had the right to prevent me from continuing, to store my personal data and to ask another two police officers to become involved. Only when I said that I would contact the NUJ ( National Union of Journalists,) expect a full receipt for all my equipment and would like two eggs with my breakfast did they back off and not pursue their original threat of letting me spend the night in the cells for 'Obstruction.' Even after this the Market Official whinged and moaned.
Despite having taken the time to explain myself, which included showing how the intended imagery was to be used in a positive light for the town...and consequently of benefit to the Market even, I was treated as a pariah and suspected deviant.
This has happened on a number of occasions to me both when photographing for pleasure as well as work. A number of times I have found myself photographing an event attended by a member of the Royal family or a Member of cabinet, again both privately and professionally. Under these circumstances and the security around such events I have no issue with questions and even giving my details. However we now appear to live among those that believe everything and everybody is a potential threat, that they are empowered to 'protect the law' and that they require no understanding of what they talk about to undertake this.
I know. 'Its the way things are going' or 'You'll have forgetten about it tomorrow' but, something will have to give soon and I'm concerned which way it will go.
I have just got back from photographing a busy town to show how it has moved on positively after a series of murders last year. The client wanted to highlight how people are shopping, meeting friends, having coffee...all the things you would expect to see in a healthy and vibrant town or city. As I did this I shared many jokes, exhanged smiles and the occasional chat with a few interested individuals.
Unfortunately I also had to explain what I was doing to the Market Stall Official, the Street Warden and two police officers all at different times. Not one of whom, police included, knew the current UK law on privacy or the place of photography within that. This wouldn't be enough to annoy or anger me as I'm happy to explain so long as the party asking me the questions is civil, respectful and not unnecessarily officious.
However, all were rude, hostile, suspicious and demanded proof that I had permission to photograph in the area. I kept calm, open and as reasonable and friendly as possible whilst asking them a) from whom did they believe I needed permission b) for what reason did I need permission c) why they wanted to take my name, address and business name and finally why they wanted to store this on some kind of Palm Pilot device. I also pointed out that I had committed no Offence ( nor offence ) by my actions under current UK Law.
The police, thankfully, were the least interested and most easily dealt with. The Market Official and the Street Warden however both seemed to believe that I was breaking the law and that they had the right to prevent me from continuing, to store my personal data and to ask another two police officers to become involved. Only when I said that I would contact the NUJ ( National Union of Journalists,) expect a full receipt for all my equipment and would like two eggs with my breakfast did they back off and not pursue their original threat of letting me spend the night in the cells for 'Obstruction.' Even after this the Market Official whinged and moaned.
Despite having taken the time to explain myself, which included showing how the intended imagery was to be used in a positive light for the town...and consequently of benefit to the Market even, I was treated as a pariah and suspected deviant.
This has happened on a number of occasions to me both when photographing for pleasure as well as work. A number of times I have found myself photographing an event attended by a member of the Royal family or a Member of cabinet, again both privately and professionally. Under these circumstances and the security around such events I have no issue with questions and even giving my details. However we now appear to live among those that believe everything and everybody is a potential threat, that they are empowered to 'protect the law' and that they require no understanding of what they talk about to undertake this.
I know. 'Its the way things are going' or 'You'll have forgetten about it tomorrow' but, something will have to give soon and I'm concerned which way it will go.
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oftheherd
Veteran
We all know there is a lot of misinformation on the part of authorities in many countries. Most, I think, believe they are doing their jobs, they are just misinformed. Sad to say.
Most important, is the way you have handled yourself. I congratulate you. It is just too easy to allow oneself to become frustrated and respond in kind. That never helps. Again, congrats.
Most important, is the way you have handled yourself. I congratulate you. It is just too easy to allow oneself to become frustrated and respond in kind. That never helps. Again, congrats.
J J Kapsberger
Well-known
What did they suspect you of doing? Simply 'breaking the law'? Please tell me you didn't give them your personal information.
Would a Warden and Official really have the power to detain you in a cell?
Would a Warden and Official really have the power to detain you in a cell?
Gumby
Veteran
Gee... what god-forsaken country do you live/work in that harrasses legitimate members of the press like that? And I thought we had it bad!
Roger Hicks
Veteran
A real horror story -- typical Jobsworths.
(For American readers: "Nah, can't allow that. More than my job's worth.")
This is one of the reasons I return less and less often to the UK.
Were the second lot of police after doing you for 'obstruction'?
Oh: and did you ever get an answer as to what law you might be breaking? Technically, I suppose they could have you for conspiracy (with the editor of the paper).
Cheers,
R.
(For American readers: "Nah, can't allow that. More than my job's worth.")
This is one of the reasons I return less and less often to the UK.
Were the second lot of police after doing you for 'obstruction'?
Oh: and did you ever get an answer as to what law you might be breaking? Technically, I suppose they could have you for conspiracy (with the editor of the paper).
Cheers,
R.
Gumby
Veteran
For the British-impaired... what is a "street warden" -- private security? Also, what is "Market Stall Official" - is that the management of a shopping mall?
charjohncarter
Veteran
What is the 'law' in UK about photographing? Some of us are uninformed about these interpretations. For that matter what is the law in the USA.
OurManInTangier
An Undesirable
Street Wardens are not given the power of arrest and are only meant to deter 'anti-social behaviour' such as public drunkenness, littering, vandalism etc. The Market Official was merely sticking his beak in as he is only responsible for arranging the market stall holders, their pitches and liasing between them and the local council.
...and no, I refused to give them my personal details...at which point the Street Warden called in the second pair of police officers I spoke to this morning!
Roger Hicks said:
Yes Roger, the second lot of police initially thought that they would be able to detain me without too much hullabaloo as I wasn't prepared to give my details. Once I'd stated my case, my willingness to take it that far and my knowledge of my rights....whilst keeping firm but calm they decided to move on telling the Street Warden not to bother with the paperwork ( as if this was the only reason they didn't detain me!)
Unfortunately I believe our happiness to allow companies and organisations to bear responsibility for us and pay us compensation when an accident occurs has led to governments and policing/security measures that are becoming more and more heavy handed. Therefore removing the option of responsibility of self......but thats a whole new topic.
I wonder had I been wearing a high visibility jacket, hard hat and hob nail boots maybe they would have been happier?
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Simon,
Did you take their numbers?
Even if you didn't, I assume you will be writing to their chief constable.
Congratulations on retaining your cool.
Have you contacted AP about it? Or Austin Mitchell?
Cheers,
Roger
OurManInTangier
An Undesirable
Hi Roger,
I will certainly be informing Austin Mitchell, as he has made such efforts and shown such support to this area of concern with his Early Day Motion 1155 ( a parliamentary proposal of sorts for those non UK based photographers.) No doubt it will simply be one more instance to add to the many, however I am a firm believer in the power of the masses so I will follow through on this.
Unfortunately I knew the previous Chief Constable relatively well, the new one I have not met. However I shall write to him informing him of the seeming lack of information available to his officers on this subject.
As I said earlier, I'm annoyed at the moment but this will not last and hopefully by doing something about today the current ignorance of the law by some authority figures may not last either. He says not holding his breath!
I will certainly be informing Austin Mitchell, as he has made such efforts and shown such support to this area of concern with his Early Day Motion 1155 ( a parliamentary proposal of sorts for those non UK based photographers.) No doubt it will simply be one more instance to add to the many, however I am a firm believer in the power of the masses so I will follow through on this.
Unfortunately I knew the previous Chief Constable relatively well, the new one I have not met. However I shall write to him informing him of the seeming lack of information available to his officers on this subject.
As I said earlier, I'm annoyed at the moment but this will not last and hopefully by doing something about today the current ignorance of the law by some authority figures may not last either. He says not holding his breath!
ClaremontPhoto
Jon Claremont
OMiT:
It's going to get worse in Britain.
I just saw in the Daily Mail that park keepers in one park are to ask anybody in the park without a child what they are doing there.
Nothing to do with having a camera or not, just plain being in the park without being with a child will be reason to ask you what you're up to!
It's going to get worse in Britain.
I just saw in the Daily Mail that park keepers in one park are to ask anybody in the park without a child what they are doing there.
Nothing to do with having a camera or not, just plain being in the park without being with a child will be reason to ask you what you're up to!
ClaremontPhoto
Jon Claremont
On the odd occasion people ask what I'm doing it's a genuine request because they're puzzled as to why I 'waste' film photographing a derelict building or similar.
I give the common sense answer that I'm a photographer and this is what I do.
They think I'm nuts, but they feel like they asked and I answered (sort of).
I give the common sense answer that I'm a photographer and this is what I do.
They think I'm nuts, but they feel like they asked and I answered (sort of).
Muggins
Junk magnet
It can fairly safely be assumed that, if something appears in the Daily Wail, that it ain't that bad. If you believed the Wail, we'd all have gone to hell in a handcart many years ago. I'm not sure how best to give it a global context, the best I can get is that it's marginally saner than Fox News. I suapect that, at worse, the truth is that this is lunatic-fringe-jobsworth presented as fact everwyhere else.
Besides, they've been ranting about paedophiles for years - does it say anything that they are now ranting about the paranoia that they helped create?
Adrian
Adrian
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Adrian,
A friend of mine -- a real Grauniad reader -- was horrified when his uncle came to stay, and bought a copy of the Mail.
His fears were allayed when the uncle said, 'Well, let's see what the Daily Fascist has to say today...'
Cheers,
R.
A friend of mine -- a real Grauniad reader -- was horrified when his uncle came to stay, and bought a copy of the Mail.
His fears were allayed when the uncle said, 'Well, let's see what the Daily Fascist has to say today...'
Cheers,
R.
MickH
Well-known
Simon,
Well done in keeping your cool both at the time of the "incident" and when relating it here. You have eloquently stated what occurred without letting it turn into a rant. I doff my cap to you and hope that this thread is read by not only photog's but the text, or main thrust at least, finds it's way into the line of sight of the people who control our public servants (the Police and street warden). Sadly I think the Market Stall official is beyond help or redirection.
Well done in keeping your cool both at the time of the "incident" and when relating it here. You have eloquently stated what occurred without letting it turn into a rant. I doff my cap to you and hope that this thread is read by not only photog's but the text, or main thrust at least, finds it's way into the line of sight of the people who control our public servants (the Police and street warden). Sadly I think the Market Stall official is beyond help or redirection.
sojournerphoto
Veteran
Sorry to hear of yet another case. I had a similarly unpleasant experience in London a few weeks ago. i wrote to Jack Straw, Austin Mitchell, the Tory shaow chancellor and my local MP. So far I've had a reply from the security chief at the Ministry of Justice and a request to resend my letter to the tories. AM and my local MP (Phill Willis - Liberal) have not replied.
To make matters worse, my local paper ran a short last week - Photo Warning - in which it reported a man taking photos using a video recorder in a local park. He had been reported to police by someone whio saw him, but there was no mention of any evidence that he was doing anything illegal. It was just insinuated that he was a potential/likely paedophile and was breaking the law in his observed actions.
Mikw
To make matters worse, my local paper ran a short last week - Photo Warning - in which it reported a man taking photos using a video recorder in a local park. He had been reported to police by someone whio saw him, but there was no mention of any evidence that he was doing anything illegal. It was just insinuated that he was a potential/likely paedophile and was breaking the law in his observed actions.
Mikw
kevin m
Veteran
So every middle-aged man in the U.K. with a camera is now a pervert? Yikes! You guys are getting worse than the U.S. now! 
ClaremontPhoto
Jon Claremont
You may be onto something here.
A couple of years ago people at RFF were discussing clothing and how it relates to street photography. One member wrote that he had been on assignment for a large organisation and given a high visibility jacket to wear. He said that nobody paid him any attention at all.
Last year I saw high visibility jackets in a store. Proper ones for working people, not 'disposable' type. But when I returned they were all sold.
R
ruben
Guest
Hi Simon,
I suppose I am among the biggest admirers of your pictures, and I start here just for the case my post becomes a bit rough.
True we have had several threads of the like, but in this one I will throw some questions that are obvious to me due to the fact that in Israel there is a lot of tourism and the war is against an easy to recognize ethnic nation. With all these I want to say my environment is quite different from yours and therefore some factors of your argumentation, and other folks in other threads, call my attention - and I would ask for a serious answer.
I have the feeling that deeply in your heart you don't accept the psychological implication in the mind of authorities and common people about several new factors:
1) The cathastrofic escalation of terror acts directly aimed against civilians
2) The increasing awarenes about pedophilia and its spreading through the internet.
3) The technological advances by which everybody feels 'being watched everywhere'.
In view of these factors from the last decade, the tone of your post sounds to my ears as a bit impatient, or in other words somewhat untolerant. SOMEWHAT. Or to be even more precise, you sound to be complaining. Complaining from a point of unability to do anything about, as if your hands were absolutely tied.
However you have shown us magnificent images.
For much less, here in my state, I smile and either take the picture or don't take it without my shutter being heard. But somewhere between the lines it seems to me you dont want to accept we are in a different situation. This paragraph concerned the common people.
Now concerning the authorities, the situation becomes more complex, since I believe they not only want to fight terrorism, but also take advantage of the situation and increase their control. Yet I don't understand why don't you have a propper photographer id, and a well elaborated lie to frighten cops and subcops about your extended rights flowing from your photo ID.
As I have written several times in the past, common people are to be respected and dealt with patience and consideration. On the contrary, vis a vis the authorities - whatever approach you want to skip over their heads.
So what's the source of such feeling of frustration ? You would like to walk at easy on your streets, and shoot at will, but realities don't allow you. So you have to adapt.
What would you do if Britain falls under a true and formal fascist dictatorship, like in that nice film? Would you stop photographing or try to do what is possible ?
And what is happening in London concerning the millions of tourists ? Is one by one's camera being confiscated at the airport until they leave Britain ?
Perhaps I am missing something, and I would like to know what exactly.
Cheers,
Ruben
I suppose I am among the biggest admirers of your pictures, and I start here just for the case my post becomes a bit rough.
True we have had several threads of the like, but in this one I will throw some questions that are obvious to me due to the fact that in Israel there is a lot of tourism and the war is against an easy to recognize ethnic nation. With all these I want to say my environment is quite different from yours and therefore some factors of your argumentation, and other folks in other threads, call my attention - and I would ask for a serious answer.
I have the feeling that deeply in your heart you don't accept the psychological implication in the mind of authorities and common people about several new factors:
1) The cathastrofic escalation of terror acts directly aimed against civilians
2) The increasing awarenes about pedophilia and its spreading through the internet.
3) The technological advances by which everybody feels 'being watched everywhere'.
In view of these factors from the last decade, the tone of your post sounds to my ears as a bit impatient, or in other words somewhat untolerant. SOMEWHAT. Or to be even more precise, you sound to be complaining. Complaining from a point of unability to do anything about, as if your hands were absolutely tied.
However you have shown us magnificent images.
For much less, here in my state, I smile and either take the picture or don't take it without my shutter being heard. But somewhere between the lines it seems to me you dont want to accept we are in a different situation. This paragraph concerned the common people.
Now concerning the authorities, the situation becomes more complex, since I believe they not only want to fight terrorism, but also take advantage of the situation and increase their control. Yet I don't understand why don't you have a propper photographer id, and a well elaborated lie to frighten cops and subcops about your extended rights flowing from your photo ID.
As I have written several times in the past, common people are to be respected and dealt with patience and consideration. On the contrary, vis a vis the authorities - whatever approach you want to skip over their heads.
So what's the source of such feeling of frustration ? You would like to walk at easy on your streets, and shoot at will, but realities don't allow you. So you have to adapt.
What would you do if Britain falls under a true and formal fascist dictatorship, like in that nice film? Would you stop photographing or try to do what is possible ?
And what is happening in London concerning the millions of tourists ? Is one by one's camera being confiscated at the airport until they leave Britain ?
Perhaps I am missing something, and I would like to know what exactly.
Cheers,
Ruben
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sepiareverb
genius and moron
No, no it's every guy in Vermont that's a pervert.