dave lackey
Veteran
Coffee in the morning with a dog on the couch beside me while I watch the wildlife in the backyard. I slept in for a change so I missed the crescendo of sunlight flooding our backyard. But I did not miss the parade of suburban wildlife visiting our aviary version of a feeder... a modest bird feeder looking like a regular birdhouse for all the world to see.
These critters don't seem to care which camera I have in my hand, they won't let me get within a reasonable distance to use even a 100mm lens. And I find the same thing with shooting on the street wherever I go. People in my part of the world don't care either what camera you have unless it is really a bazooka lens you are carrying. Somehow that looks obscene unless it is being used at a sports event.
So IMHO... I believe a Nikon F6, for instance, is no less stealthy than my Leica M.
In my next few posts I will present why I think the so-called smallness of a Leica M camera being stealthy is a myth. There is no reason to feel conspicuous with an SLR while out shooting.
The F6 and my FM3a are far quicker for me to use than my M bodies. The AF lenses being a bit quicker of course.
Stealth depends on how one perceived the photographer, after all, iPhones clicking everywhere with 8 years olds and 89 year olds using them everyday. Those appearing to be harmless are judged by many factors such as physical attributes, clothes, body language, age, etc.
My next post will present two photos of the shooter, one with an M6, the other with an F6.
These critters don't seem to care which camera I have in my hand, they won't let me get within a reasonable distance to use even a 100mm lens. And I find the same thing with shooting on the street wherever I go. People in my part of the world don't care either what camera you have unless it is really a bazooka lens you are carrying. Somehow that looks obscene unless it is being used at a sports event.
So IMHO... I believe a Nikon F6, for instance, is no less stealthy than my Leica M.
In my next few posts I will present why I think the so-called smallness of a Leica M camera being stealthy is a myth. There is no reason to feel conspicuous with an SLR while out shooting.
The F6 and my FM3a are far quicker for me to use than my M bodies. The AF lenses being a bit quicker of course.
Stealth depends on how one perceived the photographer, after all, iPhones clicking everywhere with 8 years olds and 89 year olds using them everyday. Those appearing to be harmless are judged by many factors such as physical attributes, clothes, body language, age, etc.
My next post will present two photos of the shooter, one with an M6, the other with an F6.
dave lackey
Veteran
dave lackey
Veteran
What is the point of this thread? I would love to see photographs of shooters who either attract attention, or those who are truly stealthy. I just don't have any as I find that creepy.
John E Earley
Tuol Sleng S21-0174
I think that holding a cell phone or digital p&s out in front of your face rather than up to your eye makes the biggest difference in how people perceive the shooter. A cell phone doesn't present the cyclops image that a RF or (D)SLR presents. Neither does a TLR which I think is the reason they are usually seen a non-threatening.
dave lackey
Veteran
Actually, I find people more adverse to iPhones as they will be immediately on the internet thru social media.
Here are some other findings as a photographer in The Deep South, meaning Atlanta and mostly small towns and suburbia:
1. Nobody in 8 years has ever asked about my Leica camera. They never even heard of one when the subject eventually came up at my urging.
2. Nobody in 38 years has ever asked about my Nikon camera. Everybody else has one.
3. I have never been asked not to photograph a building or street shots.
4. I rarely ask for pictures of strangers except on occasions of particular interest and then I ask their permission. No, I am not a dedicated "street shooter".
5. I have only been approached by police on one occasion and that was in a town of less than 500 people on a Sunday morning. They were bored and really interested. That town has since become a backdrop for the ever-popular and silly Zombie movies.
My take-away...
Circumstances and locations dictate whether or not a shooter should be worried about using an SLR, an RF, a TLR, or even a cellphone. Like any other topic, there is a distribution of folks who stand out and those who don't. I seem to fall in the middle.
Stealthy? Not at all...but it matters not whether I have carried my F6, M3, S3 2000, or my TLR. People just don't seem to care what camera or what brand I am using in the places I find myself.
YMMV...
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
In the part of the world I used to be we were honest to each other in terms of telling things. Where I'm now I still think what telling things straight is polite way instead of beating around bushes.
So let me bring it straight for you...
First are foremost if you think what AF is fast for the street, you are not here yet. My 50L USM lens AF is fast for my kinds and sports, but it is useless for the street.
Secondly, "stealthy" for the street is also not only how good people will see you with camera. You are visible with any size of the camera once it is pointed or even before.
For candids, true candids where people are not aware to be photographed with 28mm lens I will be able to take one shot only with SLR. They will hear mirror flop and react. With candid situations then I'm staying right in front of the person within two small steps I could take another shot with M, because they will not react on shutter sound of the first one.
And BTW for wildlife you need 500mm, not 100mm. It doesn't matter which camera is this, but I prefer one with fast AF and tracking focusing for wildlife.
In the part of the world I came from they call all film cameras as Zenit or FED.
Happy Independence Day!
So let me bring it straight for you...
First are foremost if you think what AF is fast for the street, you are not here yet. My 50L USM lens AF is fast for my kinds and sports, but it is useless for the street.
Secondly, "stealthy" for the street is also not only how good people will see you with camera. You are visible with any size of the camera once it is pointed or even before.
For candids, true candids where people are not aware to be photographed with 28mm lens I will be able to take one shot only with SLR. They will hear mirror flop and react. With candid situations then I'm staying right in front of the person within two small steps I could take another shot with M, because they will not react on shutter sound of the first one.
And BTW for wildlife you need 500mm, not 100mm. It doesn't matter which camera is this, but I prefer one with fast AF and tracking focusing for wildlife.
In the part of the world I came from they call all film cameras as Zenit or FED.
Happy Independence Day!
dave lackey
Veteran
This is not a street shooter argument. That has nothing to do with my discussion and is far too passionate a subject for me to venture there.
I simply am pointing out that there is no reason for the "average" person wanting to use his/her SLR anytime. Or any camera for that matter.:angel:
It is nice to have choices. Quiet shutters for quiet times. Tele when you need them. But many folks are self-conscious and timid. No reason to be.
I simply am pointing out that there is no reason for the "average" person wanting to use his/her SLR anytime. Or any camera for that matter.:angel:
It is nice to have choices. Quiet shutters for quiet times. Tele when you need them. But many folks are self-conscious and timid. No reason to be.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
One more straight point, Dave.
You are holding M wrong way. This is also part of been stealthy or not be.
Sorry, I'm keep on spitting in your morning coffee.
Bathroom black and white.
by Kostya Fedot, on Flickr
Best wishes, Ko.
You are holding M wrong way. This is also part of been stealthy or not be.
Sorry, I'm keep on spitting in your morning coffee.
Bathroom black and white.
by Kostya Fedot, on Flickr
Best wishes, Ko.
dave lackey
Veteran
Wrong way? I can't use that eye.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
"Stealth" or conspicuity have less to do with the camera than with the photographer. Any camera is conspicuous if the photographer using it is intrusive or obtrusive in how they act.
Nearly any camera can be used in an inconspicuous or stealthy manner if the photographer knows how to stay unobtrusive. What does this mean in terms of how the photography act?
If you follow the above two notions in using your camera, you can achieve stealth or unobtrusiveness with almost any hand-held camera. No static picture of a person holding a camera can show stealth as such, because all such pictures are just pictures of a person holding a camera. A video might demonstrate stealth in articulating how to be economical in motion and professional in appearance, but it's a hard thing to capture.
SLRs do have one attribute that makes it a bit harder to use them unobtrusively. It has little to do with their size and weight, or their sound. Humans are visual creatures, with limited aural capability—most do not hear the click of a shutter unless the surroundings are very quiet. However, are brains are hard-wired, again, to notice and draw attention to small, unexpected movements, things that could telegraph threat, and particularly sensitive to things that look like eyes. The flipping of the mirror in an SLR along with the way the iris stops down at taking time makes an SLR naturally appear to have an eye which winks when the shutter is released—that's what gets a subject's attention.
So, to be stealthy with an SLR at the same level as you would with an RF camera, you have to be sure that all your motions present a "face" to the subject such that the wink of the SLR does not draw attention to you as a threat. That's where the principles of economy of motion and professional appearance can make you unobtrusive and stealthy.
G
Nearly any camera can be used in an inconspicuous or stealthy manner if the photographer knows how to stay unobtrusive. What does this mean in terms of how the photography act?
Economy of motion: don't stand around holding a camera to your face fiddling with knobs and adjustments. That draws attention to you and your camera. Have everything ready to go so you lift the camera to your eye, focus, frame, make the exposure(s), and then put the camera down when you're done.
Professional appearance: look like you're doing something for a purpose, and have the skill and authority to do it. Our brains are hard-wired to see people doing a job efficiently and cleanly as doing what they're supposed to be doing. It's when you do things in a haphazard and confused way that you draw attention to your activity.
Professional appearance: look like you're doing something for a purpose, and have the skill and authority to do it. Our brains are hard-wired to see people doing a job efficiently and cleanly as doing what they're supposed to be doing. It's when you do things in a haphazard and confused way that you draw attention to your activity.
If you follow the above two notions in using your camera, you can achieve stealth or unobtrusiveness with almost any hand-held camera. No static picture of a person holding a camera can show stealth as such, because all such pictures are just pictures of a person holding a camera. A video might demonstrate stealth in articulating how to be economical in motion and professional in appearance, but it's a hard thing to capture.
SLRs do have one attribute that makes it a bit harder to use them unobtrusively. It has little to do with their size and weight, or their sound. Humans are visual creatures, with limited aural capability—most do not hear the click of a shutter unless the surroundings are very quiet. However, are brains are hard-wired, again, to notice and draw attention to small, unexpected movements, things that could telegraph threat, and particularly sensitive to things that look like eyes. The flipping of the mirror in an SLR along with the way the iris stops down at taking time makes an SLR naturally appear to have an eye which winks when the shutter is released—that's what gets a subject's attention.
So, to be stealthy with an SLR at the same level as you would with an RF camera, you have to be sure that all your motions present a "face" to the subject such that the wink of the SLR does not draw attention to you as a threat. That's where the principles of economy of motion and professional appearance can make you unobtrusive and stealthy.
G
dave lackey
Veteran
+1... Now is the time for SLR users to do what you just mentioned!
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
But some of us do.
Is your thread about what is working only for you?
I'm sorry I din't realize it.
Bye now.
Ko.
Spanik
Well-known
That's all there is to say.
willie_901
Veteran
I prefer the word discrete to stealth.
Some cameras are more discrete than others. Some photographers are more discrete than others. I get the most candid work done when both the photographer and the camera are discrete.
Private security guards and even law enforcement officers treat me differently depending on what camera I'm using. The only time I was ordered off a premises was when I used a D700. It was at a circus in an indoor arena and a friend got me a pass to photograph back stage. The circus didn't care but the promotion company security guards did. They said we're evoking your pass and get out. Believe it or not... I was not misbehaving.
A few years back our city had a BBQ Rib Festival. There was a signage prohibiting the use of professional cameras. They inspected all bags and purses at the entrance. You may wonder exactly what a professional camera is. Well the security guards decided they are DSLRs. I had a medium-sized bag with a Zeiss Ikon ZM, and three lenses (including the hefty Niikkor 85mm LTM). They looked inside the bag, smiled and waved me through.
Today my Fujifilm X-Pro 1 with the 27/2.8 or 18/2 pancake lenses are treated the same way. People just don't care. Part of the reason is I am quick (discrete). But this camera (and numerous similar cameras) are treated differently than large, loud DSLRs with enormous petal lens hoods. When I carried a Canonet QL-17 III or a Fujifilm X100 daily discretion was easier to achieve than when I carried a D200/300/700 (with AI/AIS primes and small lens hoods) in similar circumstances.
Mobile phones are universally ignored. Their IQ gets better with every generation.
Some cameras are more discrete than others. Some photographers are more discrete than others. I get the most candid work done when both the photographer and the camera are discrete.
Private security guards and even law enforcement officers treat me differently depending on what camera I'm using. The only time I was ordered off a premises was when I used a D700. It was at a circus in an indoor arena and a friend got me a pass to photograph back stage. The circus didn't care but the promotion company security guards did. They said we're evoking your pass and get out. Believe it or not... I was not misbehaving.
A few years back our city had a BBQ Rib Festival. There was a signage prohibiting the use of professional cameras. They inspected all bags and purses at the entrance. You may wonder exactly what a professional camera is. Well the security guards decided they are DSLRs. I had a medium-sized bag with a Zeiss Ikon ZM, and three lenses (including the hefty Niikkor 85mm LTM). They looked inside the bag, smiled and waved me through.
Today my Fujifilm X-Pro 1 with the 27/2.8 or 18/2 pancake lenses are treated the same way. People just don't care. Part of the reason is I am quick (discrete). But this camera (and numerous similar cameras) are treated differently than large, loud DSLRs with enormous petal lens hoods. When I carried a Canonet QL-17 III or a Fujifilm X100 daily discretion was easier to achieve than when I carried a D200/300/700 (with AI/AIS primes and small lens hoods) in similar circumstances.
Mobile phones are universally ignored. Their IQ gets better with every generation.
JoeV
Thin Air, Bright Sun
One more straight point, Dave.
You are holding M wrong way. This is also part of been stealthy or not be.
Sorry, I'm keep on spitting in your morning coffee.
Bathroom black and white.
by Kostya Fedot, on Flickr
Best wishes, Ko.
Discretion also has to do with what clothes we wear in public. For example, it would be hard to not be noticed wearing this zebra-like outfit.
~Joe
dave lackey
Veteran
Nothing wrong with that.:angel: What works for you is you.
I haven't yet understood blacking out the name or logo on a camera. Again, here in the part of the US I live and frequent...Leica is unknown and people really do not care. Nikon film cameras...meh..they are not impressed one way or another. No, iphones and such are the mainstream and to some, more suspicious as so many people do not want their images spread across media. Other places in the world are certainly different.
The reason I brought this up in the first place is the first outing I had with the F6 a week ago. The images (still at my friend's lab) vary but were mostly all done whilst walking around a small town. After so much shooting with RF cameras in the past, I was wondering how it would feel using a "not small" SLR. After about 15 minutes, I realized no one gave a crap about me or the camera.
Liberating!!
zauhar
Veteran
One thing that destroys stealth is having the camera hanging around your neck. With a small film camera and a lens with a focussing tab you can keep it in your hand and adjust approximate focus and aperture without looking. To me that represents the real advantage over an SLR.
Dave's comparison to birds is very apt - I think that getting candid shots of people is just like going after an animal. They immediately sense when you take an interest in them. I believe KoFe is right about demeanor playing the major role.
But you need to be out a lot to find interesting things to catch, stealth means nothing without raw material.
Randy
Dave's comparison to birds is very apt - I think that getting candid shots of people is just like going after an animal. They immediately sense when you take an interest in them. I believe KoFe is right about demeanor playing the major role.
But you need to be out a lot to find interesting things to catch, stealth means nothing without raw material.
Randy
dave lackey
Veteran
Totally agree to being out a lot. Sigh... I get maybe 3-4 hours a week of personal time and the opportunity to go out shooting is infrequent at best. The more one does an activity the more comfortable one is with himself, the task and with others.
kxl
Social Documentary
Yup. I'm probably the least stealthy person on RFF, but I do prefer to be discrete when I shoot, so I roost. I park my butt somewhere, get a feel for what's happening in front of me, shoot for a few minutes then move on.
BTW, here in LA, no one cares about anyone carrying a camera (in fact, you almost expect it around some parts of town). The only exception might be that whole celebrity/paparazzi dynamic.
dave lackey
Veteran
I can understand that! Here in Atlanta, one may be considered kinda weird walking around with a camera but for the most part, dressing down in the hot weather makes us look like tourists anyway! Shorts, black socks and sandals and a loud short sleeve shirt are pretty comfy and certainly makes a statement!