david b
film shooter
Let's start with the basics.
The camera in question is only a prototype at this point in time. Fuji is currently showing it off at all of the major photography shows with it's introduction at the PMA. The GF670 as it is currently named, has caused a humongous stir in all of the major online forums, including APUG and RFF as well as dpreview where several of the digital folks there say this will be their "film"camera of choice. This is terrific news.
So, with that out of the way, let me add a few thoughts and wishes for the camera.
First, I really hope that Fuji makes this camera. No matter what format, just make the camera.
Format:
6x7 is a nice format but 6x8 or even 6x9 is better and here are a few reasons why:
Some people feel 6x7 is too close to 6x6, which is too close to square. Okay not a big deal. The big deal for me is that you cannot fit ten 6x7 negatives on a sheet of 8x10 paper to make contact prints. You can only fit 9, meaning there is always an orphan. This makes me crazy. 6x7 makes 10 negatives. 6x8 would produce 9 negatives and 6x9 would produce 8 negatives. Both of these fit onto a sheet of 8x10 paper and most importantly into a 8x10 negative sleeve like the PrintFile 120-4HB. To me, the 6x8 format is ideal. But I would be happy to get any new camera.
Price:
There is a ton of speculation about the price. Price of course limits who can and who will buy the camera. I am thinking the camera will be around $1500 US. This would be the buy/don't buy point for me. Some folks are thinking $1000 and some think even cheaper. Somehow, I do not think it will be cheaper than $1000. The latest and last film camera from Nikon is the F6. It sells at B&H in NYC for $1800 and they currently have a used one for $1299. The F6 is a techno marvel with lots of bells and whistles and sophisticated metering. The GF670 is and would be relatively simple with center weighted metering and not much more. Of course the built in lens would be top notch as all Fuji glass is but the rest of the camera is of rather simple construction. So if the price is $1000, I think this camera will do extremely well. As the price decreases, sales will get better. At $1000, I would buy two, one in chrome and one in black. At $1500, I think most folks might wait out the used market to see what happens. At $1500, I would only buy one.
Lens(es):
Wouldn't it be nice if there was a regular lens and Wide angle lens? If the normal is going to be an 80mm, as seen in the photos, wouldn't a 55mm lens be wonderful? I sure think so, and again, if the price is around the $1000 mark, I think more than a few folks would buy one of each, just like the Leica guys who carry two bodies with different lenses.
Accessories:
What I would like to see is a complete kit. A really nice bag to carry the camera, a small light meter, a filter or two, and 10 rolls of Fuji Acros 100. Add to that, the availability of a simple, light weight flash and this would be the ultimate travel kit. Imagine going through the airport with that set-up. As for pricing, maybe $100 for the bag and $149 for the flash. So if the camera was, let's say $1249, the entire kit minus film would be $1500. That would totally rock. And we all know that the profit margin in accessories is giant.
I think Fuji definitely hit a nerve and got people really excited with the possibility of this camera. I truly hope they make it. And if they don't, maybe Zeiss or Bessa / Voigtlander will come up with one.
(as posted on my blog)
The camera in question is only a prototype at this point in time. Fuji is currently showing it off at all of the major photography shows with it's introduction at the PMA. The GF670 as it is currently named, has caused a humongous stir in all of the major online forums, including APUG and RFF as well as dpreview where several of the digital folks there say this will be their "film"camera of choice. This is terrific news.
So, with that out of the way, let me add a few thoughts and wishes for the camera.
First, I really hope that Fuji makes this camera. No matter what format, just make the camera.
Format:
6x7 is a nice format but 6x8 or even 6x9 is better and here are a few reasons why:
Some people feel 6x7 is too close to 6x6, which is too close to square. Okay not a big deal. The big deal for me is that you cannot fit ten 6x7 negatives on a sheet of 8x10 paper to make contact prints. You can only fit 9, meaning there is always an orphan. This makes me crazy. 6x7 makes 10 negatives. 6x8 would produce 9 negatives and 6x9 would produce 8 negatives. Both of these fit onto a sheet of 8x10 paper and most importantly into a 8x10 negative sleeve like the PrintFile 120-4HB. To me, the 6x8 format is ideal. But I would be happy to get any new camera.
Price:
There is a ton of speculation about the price. Price of course limits who can and who will buy the camera. I am thinking the camera will be around $1500 US. This would be the buy/don't buy point for me. Some folks are thinking $1000 and some think even cheaper. Somehow, I do not think it will be cheaper than $1000. The latest and last film camera from Nikon is the F6. It sells at B&H in NYC for $1800 and they currently have a used one for $1299. The F6 is a techno marvel with lots of bells and whistles and sophisticated metering. The GF670 is and would be relatively simple with center weighted metering and not much more. Of course the built in lens would be top notch as all Fuji glass is but the rest of the camera is of rather simple construction. So if the price is $1000, I think this camera will do extremely well. As the price decreases, sales will get better. At $1000, I would buy two, one in chrome and one in black. At $1500, I think most folks might wait out the used market to see what happens. At $1500, I would only buy one.
Lens(es):
Wouldn't it be nice if there was a regular lens and Wide angle lens? If the normal is going to be an 80mm, as seen in the photos, wouldn't a 55mm lens be wonderful? I sure think so, and again, if the price is around the $1000 mark, I think more than a few folks would buy one of each, just like the Leica guys who carry two bodies with different lenses.
Accessories:
What I would like to see is a complete kit. A really nice bag to carry the camera, a small light meter, a filter or two, and 10 rolls of Fuji Acros 100. Add to that, the availability of a simple, light weight flash and this would be the ultimate travel kit. Imagine going through the airport with that set-up. As for pricing, maybe $100 for the bag and $149 for the flash. So if the camera was, let's say $1249, the entire kit minus film would be $1500. That would totally rock. And we all know that the profit margin in accessories is giant.
I think Fuji definitely hit a nerve and got people really excited with the possibility of this camera. I truly hope they make it. And if they don't, maybe Zeiss or Bessa / Voigtlander will come up with one.
(as posted on my blog)
dazedgonebye
Veteran
I'm fine with 6x7. 6x9 would add quite a bit of size and expense I think.
I think you're about right on price. If they keep things as simple as the prototype, there's no reason they can't keep it under $1k (I think).
I'm ok with the 80mm since that's about 40mm equivalent. Going much wider would make it a wide angle camera instead of a general walk around camera. Much wider than 65mm and I think it would actually be less interesting to me.
I think you're about right on price. If they keep things as simple as the prototype, there's no reason they can't keep it under $1k (I think).
I'm ok with the 80mm since that's about 40mm equivalent. Going much wider would make it a wide angle camera instead of a general walk around camera. Much wider than 65mm and I think it would actually be less interesting to me.
sooner
Well-known
I was excited to see your post because, like many of us here, I am lusting after this camera. My biggest concern is probably price, because I'm one where up to about a $1k I can go, but much more than that and the wife will rebel. It seems to me that if they price it at, say, $900, then a lot of guys like me will definitely buy one, and people who would pay much more will buy two. But with prices of used Fuji MF cameras going for that much on Ebay, it surely won't cost much less than a grand.
chippy
foo was here
david b said:
its all swings and roundabouts hey! (there is always something with a format that has its quirks). for my self i am less concerned with the awkwardness of contact printing and would appreciate getting the maximum from the neg in the final print. 6x7 is considered the ideal format because it enlarges directly up in size to 8x10 and so on (larger) without wasting any negative (as does 4x5).
6x9 is difficult to find enlargers for (at least in my neck of the woods!) and some of the neg is wasted when enlarged to standard sizes ( a whopping 2cm). 6x6 is fine if you want the square format (though you waste some paper) but if you have to crop for standard size enlargements then you arnt making or getting full use from the negative size. 6x8 i have no experiance with!!!dont think i have actually ever seen one lol, but the wasted neg size would apply.
love the idea about supplying an alternet camera with wide angle. i keep thinking how i can convert some older folders, although i was considering tele for portrait use
Solinar
Analog Preferred
Fortunately in the US, the Besseler 23 is commonly available used. It handles up to 6x9. I use a Durst 609, which is quite old - but yes newer 6x7 enlargers are more common.
In addition to the contact sheet issue, the reason to prefer 6x8 or 6x9 is that you wind up using the full 56mm width of the neg on photos other than 8x10.
If this camera comes to fruition as a 6x7 and is $1500 or less in USD - I'll still go for it - because I have other cameras that I can sell to offset the cost.
In addition to the contact sheet issue, the reason to prefer 6x8 or 6x9 is that you wind up using the full 56mm width of the neg on photos other than 8x10.
If this camera comes to fruition as a 6x7 and is $1500 or less in USD - I'll still go for it - because I have other cameras that I can sell to offset the cost.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
The market for used enlargers up to 4x5 capability is very, very good for buyers right now. If one needs to buy an enlarger as a result of purchasing this camera, it's nearly a trivial matter to do so.
Andrew Sowerby
Well-known
This camera is indeed very interesting. I'm not as optimistic about the price though. I think that it will be at least $1,500. I would have preferred 6x6, but what are ya gonna do? It's great to see Fuji continue to make intriguing film cameras.
tripod
Well-known
I think 6x7 is the most bang for the buck format in 120. If you prefer to print to a higher aspect ratio rectangle, you can always crop a bit along the long side. 10 shots per roll (6x7) is better than 8 (6x9). Just my opinion. 6x6 means you dn't have to rotate the camera for verticals, but if you're printing to a rectangle, you crop to 645, which is 1/2 frame 120 in essence. I don't print many square photos, so my bias is evident.
sleepyhead
Well-known
This is all sounding rather PLAUBEL MAKINA-ish to me...
tripod
Well-known
hope it would be lighter than a Plaubel Makina!
kuzano
Veteran
6X7 involves the least waste of film...
6X7 involves the least waste of film...
At least as far as my experience shows me. I would never print square, so 6X6 involves cropping. I have not been able to find a local processor who will do more than process the film in a strip using 6X9, so I have to scan and print myself (doable, but not my choice). I use 645 quite a bit, but would like to use a larger format.
I am happy with the choice of 6X7.
I am already on record as estimating the cost in excess of 1000 and more like $1500.
Otherwise, it's just wait and see. It is, after all a Fuji decision and I will likely get in line for it.
6X7 involves the least waste of film...
At least as far as my experience shows me. I would never print square, so 6X6 involves cropping. I have not been able to find a local processor who will do more than process the film in a strip using 6X9, so I have to scan and print myself (doable, but not my choice). I use 645 quite a bit, but would like to use a larger format.
I am happy with the choice of 6X7.
I am already on record as estimating the cost in excess of 1000 and more like $1500.
Otherwise, it's just wait and see. It is, after all a Fuji decision and I will likely get in line for it.
GeneW
Veteran
How difficult would it be to design this camera so that 6x9 was the native format, but with masks for 6x6, a la some of the older folders on the market? With dotted lines in the VF to show 6x6. Perhaps a switch on the film advance to allow it 8 or 12 frames per roll.
Gene
Gene
dazedgonebye
Veteran
GeneW said:
I think the variable film advance would be the toughest part.
David Goldfarb
Well-known
The old cameras could combine formats with masks and multiple red windows, as some of the modern rollfilm backs made in China do today. A common combination was 6x9/645 with two red windows. With the 645 mask in place, you could use the 6x9 series of frame numbers exposing with each number first in one red window, then in the second red window. I have three frame number windows on my DaYi 6x17 back for 6x17, 6x12, and 6x9 with masks to go along with them.
If you want something like this, you can get it now from companies like Fotoman or Gaoersi, but they don't have a coupled rangefinder, or you could just get one of the multiformat Chinese backs for almost any 4x5" camera, some of which have rangefinders, but they are heavier and bulkier than a folder.
There are systems for multiple formats on one roll with auto frame counters. One is the Sinar Zoom II rollfilm back for 4x5" cameras, and one is the very sophisticated electronic back for the Gilde medium format system. Both of these cost much more than I think anyone would be willing to pay for a folding camera.
If you want something like this, you can get it now from companies like Fotoman or Gaoersi, but they don't have a coupled rangefinder, or you could just get one of the multiformat Chinese backs for almost any 4x5" camera, some of which have rangefinders, but they are heavier and bulkier than a folder.
There are systems for multiple formats on one roll with auto frame counters. One is the Sinar Zoom II rollfilm back for 4x5" cameras, and one is the very sophisticated electronic back for the Gilde medium format system. Both of these cost much more than I think anyone would be willing to pay for a folding camera.
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GeneW
Veteran
Thanks. It sounds as if even if it could be done, it would add significantly to the cost of production, hence the price.
Gene
Gene
If the 80mm lens folder is successful, Fuji might well consider a 55mm lens version. This is equivalent to what they've previously done with 6x4.5cm cameras, both in the manual non-folding GS models and the later autofocus GA645's (prior to the zoom GA645Zi) in which there were 60mm and 45mm versions. We'd have to buy one of each, naturally. 
tripod
Well-known
You're correct Doug, Fuji has offered a normal and a wide lens version of their different 120 camera series. Let's hope they continue this trend!
Indeed! It would be very attractive... And I should add that Fuji history also includes the GW690 with 90mm and the GSW690 with 65mm lens as precedents.tripod said:
Leighgion
Bovine Overseer
I don't think it's apt to compare the F6 to this prospective Fuji folder in the price arena.
Not only is the F6 a much more complex, high tech and flexible machine, its continued existence is, in my opinion, an act of prestige for Nikon. The role that professional 35mm F-series once filled is now pretty much completely taken over by digital. Nikon made an F6 and continues to sell it though, I think in order to retain a pretty solid claim that they're still making the best 35mm SLR in the world, even if the 35mm SLR's time as dominator of the photographic scene is past. Nikon no doubt doesn't expect to sell a lot of F6's, and so they can charge high since it's going to mostly be attractive to a few people who have the money and are willing to spend it.
This Fuji folder is an entirely different case. Not only it technologically a much simpler device with correspondingly lower manufacture costs, its niche has not been displaced by digital. A compact medium format camera is still unmatched for how much potential quality you can pack into such a small package. I think it'd be a terrible mistake for Fuji to boutique price it in order to jack up the profit margins as, with a competitive price tag, a new medium format folder from a major maker could rake in a lot more sales than an F6 could hope to, and the potential market extends much farther than rich hobbyists. Price it right, and they could make sales to all of us who haunt eBay looking at used medium format rangefinders that still go for hundreds and over a thousand dollars US.
I'm quite interested in the camera, but if Fuji asks for $1500+, then I'm tuning out. At that price, I'm you're moving into Mamiya 7 territory, which has interchangeable lenses.
Not only is the F6 a much more complex, high tech and flexible machine, its continued existence is, in my opinion, an act of prestige for Nikon. The role that professional 35mm F-series once filled is now pretty much completely taken over by digital. Nikon made an F6 and continues to sell it though, I think in order to retain a pretty solid claim that they're still making the best 35mm SLR in the world, even if the 35mm SLR's time as dominator of the photographic scene is past. Nikon no doubt doesn't expect to sell a lot of F6's, and so they can charge high since it's going to mostly be attractive to a few people who have the money and are willing to spend it.
This Fuji folder is an entirely different case. Not only it technologically a much simpler device with correspondingly lower manufacture costs, its niche has not been displaced by digital. A compact medium format camera is still unmatched for how much potential quality you can pack into such a small package. I think it'd be a terrible mistake for Fuji to boutique price it in order to jack up the profit margins as, with a competitive price tag, a new medium format folder from a major maker could rake in a lot more sales than an F6 could hope to, and the potential market extends much farther than rich hobbyists. Price it right, and they could make sales to all of us who haunt eBay looking at used medium format rangefinders that still go for hundreds and over a thousand dollars US.
I'm quite interested in the camera, but if Fuji asks for $1500+, then I'm tuning out. At that price, I'm you're moving into Mamiya 7 territory, which has interchangeable lenses.
oftheherd
Veteran
Leighgion said:
Good points I think. Its not like they are manufacturing a new technology. Folders have been made by a lot of manufacturers, and in good quality. They have even done it before themselves. As seen below, with a top view, back open view, and back with film windows view.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=80023&ppuser=50
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=80020&ppuser=50
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=80021&ppuser=50
and here also (a camera that later sold for that price (?):
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=80021&ppuser=50
They can move the manuafcturing off shore and still monitor the quality. I expect they are using a lens they have already used on another of their rf cameras, so that could reduce cost. For those reasons, I don't see why they would have to charge over a thousand dollars per camera. Someone who knows more about the camera manufacturing business may be able to correct my thinking.
EDIT: Sorry about the links to my gallery, they wouldn't post from the post an image icon.
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