Nh3
Well-known
Tibetans protest against China, Toronto April 10, 2008.
Protesters arrive at Queen's park, seat of provisional government.
Some of the protesters shave their head in protest urging the Canadian government to do more for the plight of Tibetans.
Protesters arrive at Queen's park, seat of provisional government.
Some of the protesters shave their head in protest urging the Canadian government to do more for the plight of Tibetans.
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Nh3
Well-known
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Thanks.
Roger
Roger
kshapero
South Florida Man
I totally support the plight of the Tibetan people. But just what is Canada to blame for? Its the Chinese Government persecuting them not Canada.
kully
Happy Snapper
Your average 'Joe' can't say much to the Chinese government. The Canadian government can. Peaceful demonstration is a way to tell politicians something if you havn't got the money to lobby them.
I'm all against the Chinese government, but I was deeply saddened to see reports of innocent Chinese people being hurt by the Tibetans for doing nothing else than being Chinese...
I'm all against the Chinese government, but I was deeply saddened to see reports of innocent Chinese people being hurt by the Tibetans for doing nothing else than being Chinese...
crawdiddy
qu'est-ce que c'est?
In an ideal world, all protest would be peaceful and non-violent. But in an ideal world, the Chinese government wouldn't oppress the Tibetan people.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
True, but consider (a) the likely source of such reports, namely, the Chinese media -- famed for their honesty and impartiality -- and (b) how you would feel if the Chinese invaded your country; insisted on only Chinese being taught in schools; and kept all the best jobs for themselves.
How 'innocent' were the victims? I'm not advocating collective punishment, etc., but I'd like some independent reporting, i.e. not from Chinese sources, before I give unquestioning credence to the reports you quote.
Very roughly, Hitler killed 16,000,000 people; Stalin doubled that at 32,000,000; and Mao's China killed 64,000,000, doubling it again. Only the Chinese communust regime is still in power.
The exact figures can be disputed but any sources you check (except perhaps Chinese) will confirm the trend.
Roger
cmogi10
Bodhisattva
When I have time again I'm going to scan the negatives from the San Francisco Embarcadero protest. It was wild.
Nice shots!
Nice shots!
raid
Dad Photographer
I have read that until China started taking over the local affairs in Tibet, there were many slaves in Tibet. Slavery was all over Tibet. If this is true, then I would like to see both views of the story.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Raid,
Have you ever heard this from any sources other than Chinese or Chinese sympathisers? Apart from Chinese propaganda since the 1950s, I do not recall anyone saying there were 'many slaves' in old Tibet. In fact, to use the term 'slave' at all, you have to stretch the term beyond even bonded labour, let alone buying and selling people in the style of the Old South.
I've been reading with some interest on this topic since I was a small boy -- over 50 years now -- including English and of course German accounts, and slavery certainly does not figure large in anything I have read. It may be that I am misremembering, but I do not recall anyone even commenting on any form of slavery.
A quick Google reveals that one of the leading lights among those who refer to Tibetan 'slavery' refers to Amnesty International as being in league with the Dalai Lama in refusing to acknowledge the existence of slavery in Tibet -- which pretty much indicates the degree of bias that is involved here.
The old Tibet was not perfect. For years, a leading Tibetan in exile and I have been talking about doing an honest history book, neither Shangri-La nor Chinese propaganda: stories of monastic battles verging on clan warfare, for example. But all the most lurid stories turn out to be either Chinese propaganda or an over-enthusiastic re-writing of European Christian visitors who saw Tibetan Buddhism as 'devil worship', and its adherents as therefore being capable of anything.
Cheers,
Roger
raid
Dad Photographer
Hello Roger,
I am an educator, so I am always open to opinions and ideas. I just asked a question. If I knew the definite answer to my question, I would not have posted my question.
Your detailed response is believable, and I thank you for it.
I am an educator, so I am always open to opinions and ideas. I just asked a question. If I knew the definite answer to my question, I would not have posted my question.
Your detailed response is believable, and I thank you for it.
kully
Happy Snapper
Don't get me wrong, I've been a member of the 'Free Tibet' campaign since before it was in vogue and spent a good few wet, cold, miserable days handing out leaflets and spreading the word.
I'm just saying that it's wrong to hurt random people. Dehumanisation, us and them, it's the same thing that causes Chinese troops to gun down Tibetan civilians and others to blow themselves up in markets.
This isn't from Chinese propoganda, it's from 'From Our Own Correspondent' on Radio4, he describes the rioting, the reasons behind it, but also Tibetans attacking anyone who was Chinese and hiding in a room with a family hoping the mob wouldn't find them.
I'm just saying that it's wrong to hurt random people. Dehumanisation, us and them, it's the same thing that causes Chinese troops to gun down Tibetan civilians and others to blow themselves up in markets.
This isn't from Chinese propoganda, it's from 'From Our Own Correspondent' on Radio4, he describes the rioting, the reasons behind it, but also Tibetans attacking anyone who was Chinese and hiding in a room with a family hoping the mob wouldn't find them.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Tibet was a very poor country ruled by a very wealthy religious leader/king who kept his people in subjection until the Chinese kicked him out. Not that the Chinese were any better, at least the Dalai Lama wasn't trying to elininate Tibet's culture and murdering its people. But I wouldn't call the old regime of Tibet democratic or heroic or something to admire. Look at photos of the Potola, the palace that the Dalai Lama ruled from which would make Queen Elizabeth jealous for its sheer size and gradeur. Britain's royal family lives in luxury but the British people aren't held down in horrid poverty either, and they have the right to vote for the real leaders of the UK's government. Tibet's people had no such rights under the Dalai Lama (and still don't under the Chinese). I suspect that Tibet's historic poverty has lessened under the more modern rule of China, which would be a good thing if it weren't accompanied by cultural genocide.
jan normandale
Film is the other way
It's always better to point at the other guy and say "look at what is going on over there!". Redirecting attention and controlling perception, that's what it's about. Just like photography.
• Britain in Ireland
• British Imperialism in Africa and India
• Britain and the UK on Diego Garcia
• The US and First Nations people
• US and Panama
• Cuba-Guantanamo
• US and the Phillipines
• US and Iraq
The point is there's more to the Tibet situation than the view our sources have developed for us.
Interestingly China has never done much about Taiwan except to tell the West to "stay out" but no one gives them credit for patiently standing back do they? Imagine France playing fast and loose with Puerto Rico... I'm sure the US wouldn't mind. Just like Canada doesn't mind the continuing denial of it's Arctic by the US... right ? And Canadians always treat First Nations people well , except when they want what is on their reserves. Then those “difficult” people are “troublemakers”. Americans were heroes not villains when they fought for independence from Britain.
Spin doctors are the third oldest profession.
I know I’m not getting the story from either Tibet or China, however I’m sure neither look good upon a closer inspection.
• Britain in Ireland
• British Imperialism in Africa and India
• Britain and the UK on Diego Garcia
• The US and First Nations people
• US and Panama
• Cuba-Guantanamo
• US and the Phillipines
• US and Iraq
The point is there's more to the Tibet situation than the view our sources have developed for us.
Interestingly China has never done much about Taiwan except to tell the West to "stay out" but no one gives them credit for patiently standing back do they? Imagine France playing fast and loose with Puerto Rico... I'm sure the US wouldn't mind. Just like Canada doesn't mind the continuing denial of it's Arctic by the US... right ? And Canadians always treat First Nations people well , except when they want what is on their reserves. Then those “difficult” people are “troublemakers”. Americans were heroes not villains when they fought for independence from Britain.
Spin doctors are the third oldest profession.
I know I’m not getting the story from either Tibet or China, however I’m sure neither look good upon a closer inspection.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Dilution of the culture of minorities and the brutal suppression of their rights to express their dissatisfaction has been a world trend for centuries and the country I live in is no exception with it's own Aboriginal population! We have taken their children from them, forced them to live in squalor, reduced their life expectancy with our western/european ways and at times rounded them up and shot them like dogs when they fought back.
Very few countries are innocent and many of the most advanced apparently civilised societies have dark pasts that involve severe suppression of basic human rights. We ... the privilaged ... should all bow our heads in shame!
Thanks for the photos ... they are far more powerful than anything that can be said in this thread.
Very few countries are innocent and many of the most advanced apparently civilised societies have dark pasts that involve severe suppression of basic human rights. We ... the privilaged ... should all bow our heads in shame!
Thanks for the photos ... they are far more powerful than anything that can be said in this thread.
steamer
Well-known
No dilemma on Tibet whatsoever, I stand with the Tibetans against Chinese oppression. If others want to throw in their lot with the oppressors for whatever reasons so be it.
Mao said if you tell a lie 100 times it becomes true, his heirs believe this.
Read this if you want some info on Tibet.
http://tinyurl.com/5kf44g
Mao said if you tell a lie 100 times it becomes true, his heirs believe this.
Read this if you want some info on Tibet.
http://tinyurl.com/5kf44g
Nh3
Well-known
I'm sure by looking at the pictures you have guessed by now who's side I'm. So, I'm not going to engage in the political discussion, but I'll share with you one of the incidents during that day.
As you can see from the pictures most of the protesters were Tibetan women since this was a weekday and most men were at work, but anyway just as the protest was moving near a major intersection a Chinese guy from the sidewalk was shouting on the top of his lungs "f u" and he was spitting at the protesters from a distance.
As you can see from the pictures most of the protesters were Tibetan women since this was a weekday and most men were at work, but anyway just as the protest was moving near a major intersection a Chinese guy from the sidewalk was shouting on the top of his lungs "f u" and he was spitting at the protesters from a distance.
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R
rich815
Guest
I'm scanning some tonight myself. We were likely within feet of each other. Sorry I missed you!
jan normandale
Film is the other way
I'm perplexed by this entire thread. It is definitely no longer a photography thread if it ever was. I will close by saying that any nation has people who will derogate others. This behaviour precedes me by a thousand years. This behaviour is not a condemnation of a nation or group. It's personal. I'm sure there are Chinese who are equally concerned to see a solution to this issue.
In my opinion this a political discussion that belongs on the editorial page of a newspaper.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Sorry for a long post, but those who are interested in Tibet may find it worth reading.
The Thirteenth Dalai Lama (the current one is the Fourteenth) instituted a wonderful trick, a reverse secret police. Their job was to pose as ordinary citizens, and, if they were ill-treated by officials, to report back to HQ and have the officials kicked out. This alone is one of the finest political ideals I have ever heard of.
The Thirteenth also tried to reduce the size of the monasteries, modernize the army, and modernize the country by encouraging people to send their children to boarding schools abroad for a while: several went to Rugby in the UK. His efforts were frustrated by the aristocracy.
The country was without doubt a long way from perfect, and it was feudal to a considerable degree (except that serfdom, in the sense of being legally tied to the land as chattels, with the local lord having legal power of life and death, did not exist as it did in, say Russia). The Fourteenth has said, "Yes, our country and our religion needed purification -- but I think we have suffered enough."
The Chinese Empire has always been inclined to invade its neighbours, and has on occasion been invaded by those neighbours: Beijing was a tributary of Tibet in about the 7th century (before the Tibetans gave up their empire as being inconsistent with their new religion, Buddhism), and of course Han China was a Mongol fiefdom during the Mongol Yuan dynasty. Incredibly, it uses the latter to pretend that Tibet is 'part of China'. The Great Wall was built to keep out the Manchu, who also founded a 'Chinese' dynasty.
The most important thing to realize is that while the population of the Chinese empire is about 90% Han and 10% 'minorities', the land area of the 'minorities' -- Tibet, Uighurstan, occupied Mongolia, Manchuria -- is over half the land area of the empire. Tibet alone is 1500 miles north to south, 2500 miles east to west. The empire is simple lebensraum.
Over 20 years ago, I wrote a biography of HH Dalai Lama (Great Ocean, published by Element Books and then Penguin), and became sufficiently engrossed in the Tibetan cause that I also did a propaganda book for the Government in Exile, Hidden Tibet.
A lot of my friends are on the radical wing of Tibetan politics, and we are sure that if HH ceased to be quite so moderate and conciliatory to the Chinese, there would be an uprising and a blood-bath. This renders all the more ridiculous the Chinese claims that he is organizing the current demonstrations, and explains precisely why he is so conciliatory.
If you notice, the current demonstrations started on (or the day before) March 10, Lhasa Uprising Day, when events came to a head in Lhasa in 1959. The Chinese massacred a lot of Tibetans and HH fled the country. No-one seriously believes he'd be alive today if he had stayed in Tibet.
Next year is the 50th anniversary of Lhasa Uprising day, so this ain't going to go away. The Chinese are blatantly using the Olympics as a political tool. Fine. Those of us who want a free Tibet can do that too. And we will.
Cheers,
R.
The Thirteenth Dalai Lama (the current one is the Fourteenth) instituted a wonderful trick, a reverse secret police. Their job was to pose as ordinary citizens, and, if they were ill-treated by officials, to report back to HQ and have the officials kicked out. This alone is one of the finest political ideals I have ever heard of.
The Thirteenth also tried to reduce the size of the monasteries, modernize the army, and modernize the country by encouraging people to send their children to boarding schools abroad for a while: several went to Rugby in the UK. His efforts were frustrated by the aristocracy.
The country was without doubt a long way from perfect, and it was feudal to a considerable degree (except that serfdom, in the sense of being legally tied to the land as chattels, with the local lord having legal power of life and death, did not exist as it did in, say Russia). The Fourteenth has said, "Yes, our country and our religion needed purification -- but I think we have suffered enough."
The Chinese Empire has always been inclined to invade its neighbours, and has on occasion been invaded by those neighbours: Beijing was a tributary of Tibet in about the 7th century (before the Tibetans gave up their empire as being inconsistent with their new religion, Buddhism), and of course Han China was a Mongol fiefdom during the Mongol Yuan dynasty. Incredibly, it uses the latter to pretend that Tibet is 'part of China'. The Great Wall was built to keep out the Manchu, who also founded a 'Chinese' dynasty.
The most important thing to realize is that while the population of the Chinese empire is about 90% Han and 10% 'minorities', the land area of the 'minorities' -- Tibet, Uighurstan, occupied Mongolia, Manchuria -- is over half the land area of the empire. Tibet alone is 1500 miles north to south, 2500 miles east to west. The empire is simple lebensraum.
Over 20 years ago, I wrote a biography of HH Dalai Lama (Great Ocean, published by Element Books and then Penguin), and became sufficiently engrossed in the Tibetan cause that I also did a propaganda book for the Government in Exile, Hidden Tibet.
A lot of my friends are on the radical wing of Tibetan politics, and we are sure that if HH ceased to be quite so moderate and conciliatory to the Chinese, there would be an uprising and a blood-bath. This renders all the more ridiculous the Chinese claims that he is organizing the current demonstrations, and explains precisely why he is so conciliatory.
If you notice, the current demonstrations started on (or the day before) March 10, Lhasa Uprising Day, when events came to a head in Lhasa in 1959. The Chinese massacred a lot of Tibetans and HH fled the country. No-one seriously believes he'd be alive today if he had stayed in Tibet.
Next year is the 50th anniversary of Lhasa Uprising day, so this ain't going to go away. The Chinese are blatantly using the Olympics as a political tool. Fine. Those of us who want a free Tibet can do that too. And we will.
Cheers,
R.
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