Muller
Established
Lately I've been looking to picking up a Kiev 3A or 4A and unload the LTM gear on the Bay.
Part of the reason for this is not having pinholes burned curtains with the Kiev, and it seems like there's a more consistency between lenses from different manufacturers for Contax mount systems. Meaning that the Contax mount lenses are more "plug and play" compared to LTM lenses, which tend to require adjusting the rangefinder, and that not all LTM coupling is the same.
The main thing that has kept me using Zorkis and FEDs has been their relatively compact size. If at all, how much larger (wider, taller) is the Contax copy compared to the Zorki-4 or FED 2?
Thoughts?
Part of the reason for this is not having pinholes burned curtains with the Kiev, and it seems like there's a more consistency between lenses from different manufacturers for Contax mount systems. Meaning that the Contax mount lenses are more "plug and play" compared to LTM lenses, which tend to require adjusting the rangefinder, and that not all LTM coupling is the same.
The main thing that has kept me using Zorkis and FEDs has been their relatively compact size. If at all, how much larger (wider, taller) is the Contax copy compared to the Zorki-4 or FED 2?
Thoughts?
wolves3012
Veteran
Kievs aren't immune to lens problems, for starters. If you use the russian lenses, there's still the QC issue, although there seem to be fewer problems. Some people have reported problems with some lens/body combinations too, where the lens is either too tight to mount or a sloppy fit. I'm not trying to put you off here, just be aware.
The pros of a Kiev are the burn-proof shutter, relative quietness, wise RF baselength and immunity to uneven frame exposure. Cons would include fewer lenses to choose from and uneven frame spacing (most suffer from it to some extent, whether bad enough to be an issue or not).
There's also the "Contax grip" to get used to and some folk don't like it. I find it a little awkward myself but when I use my 4A I live with it, you have no choice.
As for size, discounting the Zorki/FED 1, all the others are much of a muchness. Some have a more projecting shutter dial and lower top, others are nearly flush and so on. There's only a few mm between most of them and for practical purposes you can say they're the same, although the FED 5 is distinctly taller. It's a matter of personal preference how they fit in the hand and balance.
A Kiev 4A is is very close to the same size as a FED 2, it's a couple of mm deeper (front-to-back) and the top sits a couple of mm higher than the lower part of the FED's body. Differences are more illusion than real. A Kiev 3A would be bigger, not least because of the tall meter-housing.
The pros of a Kiev are the burn-proof shutter, relative quietness, wise RF baselength and immunity to uneven frame exposure. Cons would include fewer lenses to choose from and uneven frame spacing (most suffer from it to some extent, whether bad enough to be an issue or not).
There's also the "Contax grip" to get used to and some folk don't like it. I find it a little awkward myself but when I use my 4A I live with it, you have no choice.
As for size, discounting the Zorki/FED 1, all the others are much of a muchness. Some have a more projecting shutter dial and lower top, others are nearly flush and so on. There's only a few mm between most of them and for practical purposes you can say they're the same, although the FED 5 is distinctly taller. It's a matter of personal preference how they fit in the hand and balance.
A Kiev 4A is is very close to the same size as a FED 2, it's a couple of mm deeper (front-to-back) and the top sits a couple of mm higher than the lower part of the FED's body. Differences are more illusion than real. A Kiev 3A would be bigger, not least because of the tall meter-housing.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
I don't know whether that is a positive characteristic or a deficiency. There only were the Zeiss lenses, plus their Kiev copies, plus a few more copies by Canon, Nikon and Tanaka. So you are looking at a very small lens set (a mere eight or nine focal lengths/speeds, in up to four makes each), if you exclude the few odd pre war Zeiss prototypes.
The issue between Contax and Nikon mounts is rather worse than that between Leitz and FSU LTM - except for wides (which sort of work as the mis-focus is within DOF), the focus differences are big enough that Contax users have no use for Nikon RF lenses (where there would be a somewhat wider range of different lens designs).
David Hughes
David Hughes
Why not just get them repaired? Pin holes do happen but as the bodies are 50 to 80 years old it's hardly a surprise. So a repair might just give you another (say) 50 years use. And Oleg doesn't overcharge imo.
Also, there's a lot more to go wrong on a Kiev or Contax; especially if comparing it with a FED, Zorki or even Leica. Plus, you can use the same Kiev lenses on a FED or Zorki. A good example being the Jupiter-8 which comes in both the bayonet and screw threaded versions.
Anyway, just my 2d worth.
Regards, David
Also, there's a lot more to go wrong on a Kiev or Contax; especially if comparing it with a FED, Zorki or even Leica. Plus, you can use the same Kiev lenses on a FED or Zorki. A good example being the Jupiter-8 which comes in both the bayonet and screw threaded versions.
Anyway, just my 2d worth.
Regards, David
Steve M.
Veteran
Bessa R! Bessa R! Bessa R!
I never had to have any Leica lens adjusted to have perfect focus on one of these. They have great meters, metal shutters, bright viewfinders (but not the best focus patch), etc. If you can live w/ the noisier shutter, and Less Than Leica build quality, they are really wonderful cameras.
I never had to have any Leica lens adjusted to have perfect focus on one of these. They have great meters, metal shutters, bright viewfinders (but not the best focus patch), etc. If you can live w/ the noisier shutter, and Less Than Leica build quality, they are really wonderful cameras.
f6andBthere
Well-known
The Kiev viewfinder is godawful IMO ... not that a Fed 2 one is that great but it's sure as hell better than the Kiev one!
Coldkennels
Barnack-toting Brit.
I just "went Kiev" last month. Been putting it off and putting it off and then a 4AM basically fell into my lap. It is, for all intents and purposes, the same size as the Fed 2, so that isn't an issue. It's certainly smaller (and feels smaller/handles better) than the Zorki 4.
But here's my personal thoughts on usability:
- The viewfinder - at least on mine - is the best I've seen in an FSU camera. Better even than the Zorki 4. It's not as dim as the Feds, yet is still contrasty. No faint RF patches here.
- Focusing takes some getting used to. First of all, it's "the wrong way" compared to the LTM models. Secondly, the 50mm lenses CAN be focused in the standard fashion, but you have very little room for your fingers without gripping the aperture ring. Thirdly, the infinity lock (which is a feature I actually like when it's built into a focus tab) can get irritating if you're focusing using the lens barrel as opposed to the wheel. And finally, if you are using the wheel with a 50mm lens it is SLOW to focus. You can't move it particularly fast.
- Changing lenses, as Wolves pointed out, can be a pain. I have managed to acquire a J12, J8M, Helios 103 and a J11. The only one that mounts "properly" (i.e. clicks into place comfortably and stays there firmly) is the J11. The J12 doesn't click in (meaning it's always removable with a twist), the J8M takes more force to get on and off than I'm comfortable with, and the Helios 103 it came with clips in okay but sits slightly loose. More annoying than that though is that rear caps for the 50mms seem basically unobtainable, and the J12 and J11 rear caps are non-exchangable. If you take all three lenses out and you want to change, it's not as simple as in LTM, where you can take the rear cap off the new lens and put it on the old one. It's a small thing but it really annoys me.
- The Contax grip, while awkward, soon becomes second nature. I notice my right hand contorts into some very strange shapes at times, though; sometimes, I adopt a very stretched "normal" grip which avoids the RF window without thinking. I have long fingers, though. People with smaller hands may struggle.
- The shutter is great (very quiet) and not worrying about pinholes IS a joy. But the internal mechanisms are VERY convoluted. Just trying to get the film to load in my 4AM without the sprocket holes dropping the film is a nightmare. I'd rather deal with a bottom loader, personally. Add into that the over-engineered shutter and the strange way the shutter speed selector is combined into the winder and I'm constantly wondering how long this Kiev will last. If the Barnack is the essence of simplicity, this is the total opposite.
- Forget easy servicing. It's not like a Fed or a Zorki where rangefinders can be adjusted and light leaks can be plugged with ease - to access anything on a Kiev requires a strip-down of some kind, as I've (unfortunately) learned. My RF's gone out of alignment with the 50mm lenses slightly since I started using the J12 and J11 (which are in perfect alignment, oddly). I'd consider fixing it if it wasn't a more involved process than the simple single-screw removal of the FED 2. And looking at the Kiev Survival Site, I live in fear of vertical misalignment.
Honestly, despite all the above, I love it. I really do. There's a distinct charm to it, and it's fantastic fun to use. But everything about it is absolutely bloody mental. Nothing makes any kind of sense. Mine came with a broken flash circuit. Trying to get my head around how it worked required picking my dad's brain (he's an electrical technician) and much, much amusement on both our parts. It's fixed now, but I still find it amusing that if you leave a flash on and forget to wind the shutter straight away, it fires over and over again. I would imagine people blew a lot of flash bulbs/cubes back in the day.
But here's my personal thoughts on usability:
- The viewfinder - at least on mine - is the best I've seen in an FSU camera. Better even than the Zorki 4. It's not as dim as the Feds, yet is still contrasty. No faint RF patches here.
- Focusing takes some getting used to. First of all, it's "the wrong way" compared to the LTM models. Secondly, the 50mm lenses CAN be focused in the standard fashion, but you have very little room for your fingers without gripping the aperture ring. Thirdly, the infinity lock (which is a feature I actually like when it's built into a focus tab) can get irritating if you're focusing using the lens barrel as opposed to the wheel. And finally, if you are using the wheel with a 50mm lens it is SLOW to focus. You can't move it particularly fast.
- Changing lenses, as Wolves pointed out, can be a pain. I have managed to acquire a J12, J8M, Helios 103 and a J11. The only one that mounts "properly" (i.e. clicks into place comfortably and stays there firmly) is the J11. The J12 doesn't click in (meaning it's always removable with a twist), the J8M takes more force to get on and off than I'm comfortable with, and the Helios 103 it came with clips in okay but sits slightly loose. More annoying than that though is that rear caps for the 50mms seem basically unobtainable, and the J12 and J11 rear caps are non-exchangable. If you take all three lenses out and you want to change, it's not as simple as in LTM, where you can take the rear cap off the new lens and put it on the old one. It's a small thing but it really annoys me.
- The Contax grip, while awkward, soon becomes second nature. I notice my right hand contorts into some very strange shapes at times, though; sometimes, I adopt a very stretched "normal" grip which avoids the RF window without thinking. I have long fingers, though. People with smaller hands may struggle.
- The shutter is great (very quiet) and not worrying about pinholes IS a joy. But the internal mechanisms are VERY convoluted. Just trying to get the film to load in my 4AM without the sprocket holes dropping the film is a nightmare. I'd rather deal with a bottom loader, personally. Add into that the over-engineered shutter and the strange way the shutter speed selector is combined into the winder and I'm constantly wondering how long this Kiev will last. If the Barnack is the essence of simplicity, this is the total opposite.
- Forget easy servicing. It's not like a Fed or a Zorki where rangefinders can be adjusted and light leaks can be plugged with ease - to access anything on a Kiev requires a strip-down of some kind, as I've (unfortunately) learned. My RF's gone out of alignment with the 50mm lenses slightly since I started using the J12 and J11 (which are in perfect alignment, oddly). I'd consider fixing it if it wasn't a more involved process than the simple single-screw removal of the FED 2. And looking at the Kiev Survival Site, I live in fear of vertical misalignment.
Honestly, despite all the above, I love it. I really do. There's a distinct charm to it, and it's fantastic fun to use. But everything about it is absolutely bloody mental. Nothing makes any kind of sense. Mine came with a broken flash circuit. Trying to get my head around how it worked required picking my dad's brain (he's an electrical technician) and much, much amusement on both our parts. It's fixed now, but I still find it amusing that if you leave a flash on and forget to wind the shutter straight away, it fires over and over again. I would imagine people blew a lot of flash bulbs/cubes back in the day.
Dez
Bodger Extraordinaire
The older the better
The older the better
Just about everything has been said here, so I probably only have 1 1/2 cents worth to add, but here it is anyway.
With the Kievs, I find that the older the camera is the better it was made. The very earliest ones form 1949-53 or so were beautifully made, are at least as reliable as the Contaxes of which they were exact copies, and have chrome plating that is much BETTER than that of the Contaxes. Of course, an older camera has had longer to wear out, but the difference in build quality over the years is profound. I think the very last ones may have been designed to be landfill.
If you can find a Kiev 2 in really good condition, it's probably the best made FSU camera you will find, but you have to live without flash sync. It doesn't need to be one with the very expensive Zorki lens; the J8's and especially the old ones, are great.
Cheers,
Dez
The older the better
Just about everything has been said here, so I probably only have 1 1/2 cents worth to add, but here it is anyway.
With the Kievs, I find that the older the camera is the better it was made. The very earliest ones form 1949-53 or so were beautifully made, are at least as reliable as the Contaxes of which they were exact copies, and have chrome plating that is much BETTER than that of the Contaxes. Of course, an older camera has had longer to wear out, but the difference in build quality over the years is profound. I think the very last ones may have been designed to be landfill.
If you can find a Kiev 2 in really good condition, it's probably the best made FSU camera you will find, but you have to live without flash sync. It doesn't need to be one with the very expensive Zorki lens; the J8's and especially the old ones, are great.
Cheers,
Dez
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
Well our head bartender would beg to differ, I think. All four Cosina wides for Contax/Nikon mount are still available new in the shopping cart at CameraQuest.
40oz
...
OP:
Keep in mind that the potential issues mentioned here are simply anecdotes relating a particular problem with a particular piece of equipment and not a case of widespread issues with a particular design.
I have three Kiev bodies, a '78, '79, and an '82. The '79 has a working meter, the others have no meter. The only one that is less than rock-solid is the '78, and it was apparent upon receipt that the camera had been dropped, lens mounted, landing on the lens. The filter ring has a small dent in it and the mount will rattle if you wiggle it sideways, but the total movement is very, very small and it focuses perfectly and the shutter is fine. The other two have never given me problems and everything is tight and solid with them.
I have several J-8's and a J-3, and they're great. The J-8's are really quite good, and the J-3 wide open is amazing. I also have a J-9 and J-11 which I don't use that often for the kind of photography I do but the J-9 takes incredible portraits.
Lens choice is somewhat limited with Contax/Kiev bodies, but the flip side of that is there are no bad lenses really.
Keep in mind that the potential issues mentioned here are simply anecdotes relating a particular problem with a particular piece of equipment and not a case of widespread issues with a particular design.
I have three Kiev bodies, a '78, '79, and an '82. The '79 has a working meter, the others have no meter. The only one that is less than rock-solid is the '78, and it was apparent upon receipt that the camera had been dropped, lens mounted, landing on the lens. The filter ring has a small dent in it and the mount will rattle if you wiggle it sideways, but the total movement is very, very small and it focuses perfectly and the shutter is fine. The other two have never given me problems and everything is tight and solid with them.
I have several J-8's and a J-3, and they're great. The J-8's are really quite good, and the J-3 wide open is amazing. I also have a J-9 and J-11 which I don't use that often for the kind of photography I do but the J-9 takes incredible portraits.
Lens choice is somewhat limited with Contax/Kiev bodies, but the flip side of that is there are no bad lenses really.
Muller
Established
A lot of food for thought here, thanks!
Interesting to get opposing comments on the viewfinder from Coldkennels and f6andBthere!
Looking for Kiev 2 resulted in what looks like a lot of mistaken identity from the sellers, listing early 4a's as 2. Will keep looking.
I'm going to give the Kiev a try, and have bought a 68 production year 4A. I'll run it through it's paces and see how I like it while I have my Zorki sent off for a probably long-overdue CLA.
Again, thanks for everyone's input!
Definitely one of my main concerns, and your comments about lens fitment is is taken into consideration. I really don't expect FSU lens quality to be too different for either mount; it's good, or I'll find another.
I plan on keeping a small lens set for this, two, maybe three at the most (wide, 50mm, portrait 85 or 90). Thanks for the info about the Nikon lenses, certainly narrows things down.
The Zorki-4 and FED-2 I use now have good curtains on them, I'm sure they were replaced at some point. My first Zorki-4 has already had it's curtains replaced with a CLA, they lasted about two years and I'm fastidious about keeping a lens cap on.
Very much a concern, but taken as a challenge.
Tempting, so tempting. After some looking around I may eventually try for an R2M or 3M if the price is right.
If I'm not carrying a DSLR, then I have one of several FSU cameras on hand, so I'm good with Less Than Leica as long as it's nothing close to an Instamatic.
Interesting to get opposing comments on the viewfinder from Coldkennels and f6andBthere!
I was wondering about focusing on the barrel, but as you say it can be done. The infinity lock is something I'll have to get used to I take it.
I thought loading the AM was supposed to be easier, or "better" than the earlier models. The other issues you pointed out make me think this has more to do with the usual quality problems that come with later production FSU cameras.
I think this is the unofficial mantra for FSUs.
I think I've used the flash synch on my FSUs once. I can live without it, but a good option just in case I suppose (for some reason I want to modify a Zorki-4 and add a hot shoe).
Looking for Kiev 2 resulted in what looks like a lot of mistaken identity from the sellers, listing early 4a's as 2. Will keep looking.
I'm going to give the Kiev a try, and have bought a 68 production year 4A. I'll run it through it's paces and see how I like it while I have my Zorki sent off for a probably long-overdue CLA.
Again, thanks for everyone's input!
oftheherd
Veteran
Good luck with your Kiev. I have a 4am and it is a good picture taker. I am not big on RF, being more of an SLR guy. But mine works fine. I have 35mm, 2 50mm, the 85mm, and the 135mm, as well as a turret finder. All work well.
David Hughes
David Hughes
The infinity lock is quite useful because you can change the focussing on a lot of camera/lens combinations when setting the aperture. So the routine is change the aperture with it locked at infinity then release and focus. Do it the other way round and you'll usually move the lens when changing the aperture.
You'll find a lot of people with strange views on FED, Zorki, Leica, Contax etc, etc. I've been taking pictures since the late 50's and have had several failures; a Leica had something snap as I wound on the film (it was 10 or 11 years old and they said they'd never seen that before - I'd never seen a repair bill that high before, FWIW); another Leica SLR failed badly and became erratic the estimate for repairs approached four figures in Pounds Sterling (well over four figures in US dollars) and the camera ended up on ebay for spares; a Contax failed (electronics) and no one would touch it or even think about repairing it. Look on these forum threads and you'll find similar comments from people but it's FEDs, Zorkis and Kievs they will all warn you about. I even read a post the other day in which all the repairs to a Leica were mentioned plus a warning about ex-USSR cameras! It's rather like a religion in that faith is more important than facts.
Regards, David
You'll find a lot of people with strange views on FED, Zorki, Leica, Contax etc, etc. I've been taking pictures since the late 50's and have had several failures; a Leica had something snap as I wound on the film (it was 10 or 11 years old and they said they'd never seen that before - I'd never seen a repair bill that high before, FWIW); another Leica SLR failed badly and became erratic the estimate for repairs approached four figures in Pounds Sterling (well over four figures in US dollars) and the camera ended up on ebay for spares; a Contax failed (electronics) and no one would touch it or even think about repairing it. Look on these forum threads and you'll find similar comments from people but it's FEDs, Zorkis and Kievs they will all warn you about. I even read a post the other day in which all the repairs to a Leica were mentioned plus a warning about ex-USSR cameras! It's rather like a religion in that faith is more important than facts.
Regards, David