NickTrop
Veteran
Sooo... why start a thread on a camera purchase in the "Philosophy of Photography" forum? Because my decision to purchase was based exclusively on the philosophy of photography. Specifically, applying the Socratic method to the question of "what is the decisive moment" and asking of it - what is "a moment"? Is it 1/30th of a second? Is it 1/125th? 1/60th? All of the above? Or is it even one frame? Can it be many frames?
An old Russian silent film I watched streamed on Netflix called The Man with the Movie Camera, which I found completely intriguing, caused me to question what exactly "the photographic moment" coined by HCB is. Here's a synopsis from Wikipedia about this film:
The Man with the Movie Camera...is an experimental 1929 silent documentary film, with no story and no actors[2], by Russian director Dziga Vertov, edited by his wife Elizaveta Svilova who helped with the process of deleting and adding new frames into the film.
Vertov's feature film, produced by the Ukrainian film studio VUFKU, presents urban life in Odessa and other Soviet cities. From dawn to dusk Soviet citizens are shown at work and at play, and interacting with the machinery of modern life...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_with_a_Movie_Camera
In essence, Dziga Vertov was a street photographer. His film is a collection of "decisive moments" of soviet life in the 20's but captured with motion, not stills. Why is street photography still photography? Easy. Because still cameras are portable and the 35mm ones discrete. What was Leica's innovation? Making cameras more discrete both in terms of size and fast lenses that can use natural light so you can document. Also, you can set up for your next shot very quickly and have a lot of exposures loaded into your camera so you're always ready.
This lead me to the conclusion that street photography is synonymous with still photography largely due to imposed technological constraints. In Man with a Movie Camera, Vertov is seen lugging around a huge film camera and tripod, his wife was in the film shown editing strips and strips of footage - old school, on reels. Intrinsic to "decisive moments" and street photography involving humans is that the subject is unaware that he/she is being documented the time "decisive moment" occurs. That wasn't gonna happen with a giant movie camera on a tripod being lugged around (though through great effort Vertov pulled it off in his film...)
Not to be discounted are the cost considerations of shooting and editing movie film. Thus, by default, "decisive moments" was relegated to still photography and HCB carried a relatively tiny Leica. - not by choice, but by default, and those "decisive moments" were forced by the constraints of capturing motion to be stills not due to conscious aesthetic choices but the impracticality and expense of shooting motion discretely.
80 years after Vertov's Man with the Movie Camera, discreet digital hybrid cameras has changed all this. "Decisive Moments" can be captured by small descreet cameras capable of nearly unlimited frames both motion and stills as an aesthetic choice - not by technological constraints, and importantly, using one single discreet tool of the same approximate size/weight of the 35mm camera HCB used. Expense of capturing motion has been largely taken out of the equation. Motion can be editied easily on a PC or Mac. What was once impractical is now immanently practical.
It's time to redefine "the decisive moment".
___________________________________________________
So, what tool did I purchase for this?
Nikon D5000 body with f1.8 35mm prime (of course), "waiting in the mail..."
1. Hybrid capable of quality motion capture (required) - better yet, it's 24P, same as the D90
2. Fairly small, handles well...
3. Swivel LCD for waist-level and odd angle shooting
4. Silent Mode (Ken Rockwell says it's queter than mechanical Leicas in this mode...) http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/d5000.htm
5. "Relatively" great (class leading) dynamic range (and a D Range mode to improve on it...)
6. Last but not least - at least spec-wise, it tops the Leica M8 (as an example) and many other cameras with APS-C sized sensors in many key areas (or course, you can't use that great Leica glass with it - but I don't own any anymore
. Check it out, here: http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/en...rk-reviews/DxOMark-review-for-the-Nikon-D5000
7. Value. Got an amazing deal on a Nikon refurbed model (early versions of this camera were recalled and fixed by Nikon, so there's a lot of very decent deals on this particular model out there at insane prices... I have never had issues with refurbed electronics. In my experience you take a greater chance with new...) It goes for as low as $700 non-refurbed with kit zoom lens anyway as an entry level DSLR...
Although I was waiting on the Samsung NX10 for this purpose, after reading some performance reviews - especially below average d-range and color accuracy issues, I checked into the D5000. Held it in the store, decided it was "small enough" and liked the way it handled. When I read Nikon was now making relatively inexpensive fast high quality primes in focal lengths I shoot in (90% standard 50mm, in this case a 35mm f1.8), it was a no brainer given the cost of the camera and its performance specs.
Bottom line... Will the new hybrid cameras redefine "the decisive moment"?
Thanks for reading,
Nick
An old Russian silent film I watched streamed on Netflix called The Man with the Movie Camera, which I found completely intriguing, caused me to question what exactly "the photographic moment" coined by HCB is. Here's a synopsis from Wikipedia about this film:
The Man with the Movie Camera...is an experimental 1929 silent documentary film, with no story and no actors[2], by Russian director Dziga Vertov, edited by his wife Elizaveta Svilova who helped with the process of deleting and adding new frames into the film.
Vertov's feature film, produced by the Ukrainian film studio VUFKU, presents urban life in Odessa and other Soviet cities. From dawn to dusk Soviet citizens are shown at work and at play, and interacting with the machinery of modern life...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_with_a_Movie_Camera
In essence, Dziga Vertov was a street photographer. His film is a collection of "decisive moments" of soviet life in the 20's but captured with motion, not stills. Why is street photography still photography? Easy. Because still cameras are portable and the 35mm ones discrete. What was Leica's innovation? Making cameras more discrete both in terms of size and fast lenses that can use natural light so you can document. Also, you can set up for your next shot very quickly and have a lot of exposures loaded into your camera so you're always ready.
This lead me to the conclusion that street photography is synonymous with still photography largely due to imposed technological constraints. In Man with a Movie Camera, Vertov is seen lugging around a huge film camera and tripod, his wife was in the film shown editing strips and strips of footage - old school, on reels. Intrinsic to "decisive moments" and street photography involving humans is that the subject is unaware that he/she is being documented the time "decisive moment" occurs. That wasn't gonna happen with a giant movie camera on a tripod being lugged around (though through great effort Vertov pulled it off in his film...)
Not to be discounted are the cost considerations of shooting and editing movie film. Thus, by default, "decisive moments" was relegated to still photography and HCB carried a relatively tiny Leica. - not by choice, but by default, and those "decisive moments" were forced by the constraints of capturing motion to be stills not due to conscious aesthetic choices but the impracticality and expense of shooting motion discretely.
80 years after Vertov's Man with the Movie Camera, discreet digital hybrid cameras has changed all this. "Decisive Moments" can be captured by small descreet cameras capable of nearly unlimited frames both motion and stills as an aesthetic choice - not by technological constraints, and importantly, using one single discreet tool of the same approximate size/weight of the 35mm camera HCB used. Expense of capturing motion has been largely taken out of the equation. Motion can be editied easily on a PC or Mac. What was once impractical is now immanently practical.
It's time to redefine "the decisive moment".
___________________________________________________
So, what tool did I purchase for this?
Nikon D5000 body with f1.8 35mm prime (of course), "waiting in the mail..."
1. Hybrid capable of quality motion capture (required) - better yet, it's 24P, same as the D90
2. Fairly small, handles well...
3. Swivel LCD for waist-level and odd angle shooting
4. Silent Mode (Ken Rockwell says it's queter than mechanical Leicas in this mode...) http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/d5000.htm
5. "Relatively" great (class leading) dynamic range (and a D Range mode to improve on it...)
6. Last but not least - at least spec-wise, it tops the Leica M8 (as an example) and many other cameras with APS-C sized sensors in many key areas (or course, you can't use that great Leica glass with it - but I don't own any anymore
. Check it out, here: http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/en...rk-reviews/DxOMark-review-for-the-Nikon-D50007. Value. Got an amazing deal on a Nikon refurbed model (early versions of this camera were recalled and fixed by Nikon, so there's a lot of very decent deals on this particular model out there at insane prices... I have never had issues with refurbed electronics. In my experience you take a greater chance with new...) It goes for as low as $700 non-refurbed with kit zoom lens anyway as an entry level DSLR...
Although I was waiting on the Samsung NX10 for this purpose, after reading some performance reviews - especially below average d-range and color accuracy issues, I checked into the D5000. Held it in the store, decided it was "small enough" and liked the way it handled. When I read Nikon was now making relatively inexpensive fast high quality primes in focal lengths I shoot in (90% standard 50mm, in this case a 35mm f1.8), it was a no brainer given the cost of the camera and its performance specs.
Bottom line... Will the new hybrid cameras redefine "the decisive moment"?
Thanks for reading,
Nick
benlees
Well-known
I say have fun with it! Sounds like a great camera. "Street" video/stills has quite a long tradition. Check out Beat Streuli's work for a recent take on it.
NickTrop
Veteran
Thanks, benless. I will have fun. I will also check out Beat Streuli's work. Thanks for the recommendation!
gb hill
Veteran
Nick, I think you should have looked more into getting a movie camera. Many today are capable of capturing stills, are very lightweight, cheaper than a D5000, & have incredible zooms. I also think that movie mode in DSLR's like in most P&S are limited in the time you can record. As far as the philosopy goes I don't think the decisive moment has changed at all, only the tools have changed.
NickTrop
Veteran
gb - Actually, got one of those. But I hate the "video look" and would prefer only to use one tool and change a setting, rather than change and set up a different tool. I'm also interested in the 24p spec - and the fact is uses the older MJPEG (easy to edit and easier on you processor) for other reasons I didn't get into besides preferring the temporal aspects of the lower "film" frame rate. The D5000 uses the same technology as the D90 which is being used by some filmmakers - just don't pan too quickly due to jello roll of all CMOS sensors
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
I agree with you, Nick. I have a Canon SX10 IS that I use in this way. While it doesn't do HD (the SX1 does), it is a relatively small, superzoom with an articulated lcd, and will shoot video until the card fills up. I've used it for shooting video for the web more than I ever expected to when I bought it.
gb hill
Veteran
gb - Actually, got one of those. But I hate the "video look" and would prefer only to use one tool and change a setting, rather than change and set up a different tool. I'm also interested in the 24p spec - and the fact is uses the older MJPEG (easy to edit and easier on you processor) for other reasons I didn't get into besides preferring the temporal aspects of the lower "film" frame rate. The D5000 uses the same technology as the D90 which is being used by some filmmakers - just don't pan too quickly due to jello roll of all CMOS sensors
I have to agree with you that "video look" does have a distint crappiness to it. I was thinking more compactness with a small video cam. Sounds like you got something going, shall we look for you on youtube!
NickTrop
Veteran
LOL - don't do YouTube
NickTrop
Veteran
Pickett - same here with my little Fuji Finepix F20. I think it's an underutilized feature of the newer cams that oddly got tagged as a "who cares" feature maybe by electronics giants that want you to buy both? The video is /better lookin/ out of the hybrids. Just don't pan too much if your camera is CMOS.
NickTrop
Veteran
Of course, I didn't go /totally/ digital. I'll always shoot film, esp. black and white and esp. black and white slide from DR5. Down to one rangefinder - my favorite, the "forgotten" Fujica Compact Deluxe. I'll never part with that camera.
dave lackey
Veteran
Hey, enjoy the new camera.
Video is great. Only I don't own a video camera because a) I can't stand to use one, I prefer still shots for numerous reasons, and b) I have tons of film and video captures on disc/cd/tapes, etc. but never look at them as they remain packed away. When I want a photo, I print it. Or put it on my monitor desktop.
You see, for me, it is about the image, not the footage although I enjoy watching videos. In fact, if I had a job, I would print a lot of images, but, alas, until I can afford it again, the stills go on my monitor and even then, only the very few I want to see frequently are ever displayed. The rest are filed away.
Keep up the video work like this lady:
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/LIVING/03/21/margaret.moth.obit/t1larg.jpg
Video is great. Only I don't own a video camera because a) I can't stand to use one, I prefer still shots for numerous reasons, and b) I have tons of film and video captures on disc/cd/tapes, etc. but never look at them as they remain packed away. When I want a photo, I print it. Or put it on my monitor desktop.
You see, for me, it is about the image, not the footage although I enjoy watching videos. In fact, if I had a job, I would print a lot of images, but, alas, until I can afford it again, the stills go on my monitor and even then, only the very few I want to see frequently are ever displayed. The rest are filed away.
Keep up the video work like this lady:
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/LIVING/03/21/margaret.moth.obit/t1larg.jpg
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I'm not sure what model Canon DSLR it is but apparently one of them is incredibly good in video mode ... to the point where an advertising agency that a friend of mine works part time for will often take the DSLR to locations in favour of a genuine video cam!
MartinP
Veteran
The video-from-stills-camera idea is well established and even not unusual, apparently (much to my surprise). There are even courses to go on and seminars to visit, as well as websites having regular content.
This sort of thing for example...
This sort of thing for example...
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gavinlg
Veteran
5d II, though the 7d is pretty epic as well.
Spleenrippa
Yes, Right There
Don't forget the brand new T2i. Even though it's only in the consumer lineup, it has all the manual video controls of the 7D, and a sensor that Canon says "is similar but not the same," which I'm not sure how many people are buying... IQ looks damn close... Not too bad for a $900 vs $2000 DSLR
FrankS
Registered User
What happened to the Yashica GS club, Nick?
maggieo
More Deadly
The opening credits for Saturday Night Live were shot with a 5d and they look pretty darn good.
JoeV
Thin Air, Bright Sun
Nick, I'd be interested to hear your reasons why you didn't choose a micro-4/3 camera like the GF-1 or E-P1, which have both video and still. The reason I ask is because they're both smaller cameras, but permit using inexpensive manual focus, "legacy" 35mm film lenses via adapters, which opens up a whole world of capability with moderate telephoto angles of view and wide open apertures.
Imagine a video sequence of a street scene shot at f/1.7, and manually pulling focus from background to foreground, for instance.
~Joe
Imagine a video sequence of a street scene shot at f/1.7, and manually pulling focus from background to foreground, for instance.
~Joe
NickTrop
Veteran
Frank, after collecting scads of fixed lens RFs I stumbled upon one I really. really like - the Fujica Compact Deluxe. I also like the Yashicas for their lens and ap priority but don't own any at the moment. I realized that - from the Olys, Yashs, to the various Konicas, etc., etc., etc., a fixed lens RF is a fixed lens RF. And they're all pretty darned good - just variations on a theme. I thought having excess of them silly after a while... had fun playing with all of them but reality? - Alls I need it one. The Compact Deluxe has a top meter, which I love... I like the focusing wheel in the back and the thumb film advance on the bottom. I like that it's manual and shutter priority and I especially love the lens on that thing. It's also nice and compact. I'll always shoot film, that's the film camera I'll reach for as relatively humble as it is...
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Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
What? A Nikon? I thought you were getting the Samsung NX-10?
(OK, I'll read the whole thread, and update accordingly)
(OK, I'll read the whole thread, and update accordingly)