Takkun
Ian M.
Hi everyone. I have a gallery exhibition coming up soon, and seeing as I have access to a printer at school, I've been trying my hand at large-format printing myself instead of sending it to a lab.
And it's giving me one heck of a headache.
The materials: I'm printing TIFF files of BW scans exported from my Aperture library with an Epson 3800, on Moab Entrada paper. I really like the heavy weight and smooth rag surface of these--I think it suits the grain of Tri-X well. Both my home computer and the lab computer (both Unibody iMacs) are color calibrated, and I'm printing from Photoshop CS3.
My methods:
1- Default Epson profiles and settings for matte paper. My professor swears by them, but he also uses their cheapest Matte Presentation Paper.
2- Moab's ICC profile and recommended media settings in the dialog box.
3- Advanced BW mode, with a number of media settings (different papers, various color density settings, different Tone settings)
4- Eric Chan's method, as described on his MIT page.
In all cases I specified the paper thickness and 'wide' platen gap in the appropriate dialog box.
The results:
Banding, extremely muddy shadows, lack of contrast, areas of completely flat tone, and a lack of sharpness--almost looking like a very compressed or posterized image. Not to mention other annoyances like ink smears in the margins. I've also tried printing some color files from digital cameras, and same result--murky shadows and flat, textureless mid tone colors. These aren't even passable as drugstore prints.
The ink is fairly new--this printer gets a good amount of use for posters and architectural rendering proofs (it is in our architecture department, after all), which seem to turn out okay on cheap Epson semigloss paper. The professor I work with suggests I just stick with what works. Normally, if I weren't hanging these to exhibit and sell, I would agree.
Of those of you still using this printer, what workflow are you using, especially with fiber rag papers?
And it's giving me one heck of a headache.
The materials: I'm printing TIFF files of BW scans exported from my Aperture library with an Epson 3800, on Moab Entrada paper. I really like the heavy weight and smooth rag surface of these--I think it suits the grain of Tri-X well. Both my home computer and the lab computer (both Unibody iMacs) are color calibrated, and I'm printing from Photoshop CS3.
My methods:
1- Default Epson profiles and settings for matte paper. My professor swears by them, but he also uses their cheapest Matte Presentation Paper.
2- Moab's ICC profile and recommended media settings in the dialog box.
3- Advanced BW mode, with a number of media settings (different papers, various color density settings, different Tone settings)
4- Eric Chan's method, as described on his MIT page.
In all cases I specified the paper thickness and 'wide' platen gap in the appropriate dialog box.
The results:
Banding, extremely muddy shadows, lack of contrast, areas of completely flat tone, and a lack of sharpness--almost looking like a very compressed or posterized image. Not to mention other annoyances like ink smears in the margins. I've also tried printing some color files from digital cameras, and same result--murky shadows and flat, textureless mid tone colors. These aren't even passable as drugstore prints.
The ink is fairly new--this printer gets a good amount of use for posters and architectural rendering proofs (it is in our architecture department, after all), which seem to turn out okay on cheap Epson semigloss paper. The professor I work with suggests I just stick with what works. Normally, if I weren't hanging these to exhibit and sell, I would agree.
Of those of you still using this printer, what workflow are you using, especially with fiber rag papers?
mfunnell
Shaken, so blurred
I know little enough about Epson printers (I use a Canon Pro9500 myself) but the only thing it occurs to me to ask is: have you checked to make sure you're using the right black ink for your media type? I recall Epson printers used to require a change in inks when changing from gloss to matte papers (though I've no idea if that's still true for the printer you are using).
...Mike
...Mike
Vince Lupo
Whatever
Yup I'd check to make sure you're using the right black ink too. I had the same issue with my 3880 recently -- a group show that I'm currently showing in required that prints be done on matte paper, something I hadn't done before. Bought some Epson Hot Press Natural, chose the paper in the dialogue box, printed it, looked like crap. Tried it a couple of more times, still crap. Then I realized that I had been printing using the Glossy Black ink. Changed to the Matte Black ink, reprinted, bingo.
Not sure how it's done in the 3800, but when you choose the paper in PhotoShop's print dialogue box, it should tell the printer the paper that you're using. Hopefully the printer recognizes that paper, and should make the black ink change accordingly.
Not sure how it's done in the 3800, but when you choose the paper in PhotoShop's print dialogue box, it should tell the printer the paper that you're using. Hopefully the printer recognizes that paper, and should make the black ink change accordingly.
__--
Well-known
Ian, I haven't yet used the 3880 for ABW, but it produces dazzling color photos. As others have mentioned, you must use Matte Black for matte paper. You can download the 3880 manual from the Epson website to make sure you set the printer to use Matte Black — the 3880 has both Matte Black and Photo Black (for gloss, semigloss and luster papers) inks installed.
Also, for ABW you must set color management to be done by the printer, not by the Photoshop and the paper profiles — you can see this in the 3880 manual as well. Your blotchy results are probably caused by not having set color management to be done by the printer.
The Eric Chan profiles for ABW only facilitate soft proofing. For proofing, you're better off printing a test strip, as in the darkroom. Also, if you're on a Macintosh, with the latest version of the OSX operating system you cannot use the Eric Chan profiles.
Finally, for heavy paper, you normally don't need to set the paper thickness or platen gap, but need to feed the paper through the Rear Manual Feed Slot (with the guide attached) — see page 36 of the manual.
I'm sure your problems will be gone if your download the 3880 manual and follow the instructions for ABW. BTW, it's great printer.
MITCH ALLAND/Potomac, MD
Download links for book project pdf files
Chiang Tung Days
Tristes Tropiques
Bangkok Hysteria
Paris au rythme de Basquiat and Other Poems
Also, for ABW you must set color management to be done by the printer, not by the Photoshop and the paper profiles — you can see this in the 3880 manual as well. Your blotchy results are probably caused by not having set color management to be done by the printer.
The Eric Chan profiles for ABW only facilitate soft proofing. For proofing, you're better off printing a test strip, as in the darkroom. Also, if you're on a Macintosh, with the latest version of the OSX operating system you cannot use the Eric Chan profiles.
Finally, for heavy paper, you normally don't need to set the paper thickness or platen gap, but need to feed the paper through the Rear Manual Feed Slot (with the guide attached) — see page 36 of the manual.
I'm sure your problems will be gone if your download the 3880 manual and follow the instructions for ABW. BTW, it's great printer.
MITCH ALLAND/Potomac, MD
Download links for book project pdf files
Chiang Tung Days
Tristes Tropiques
Bangkok Hysteria
Paris au rythme de Basquiat and Other Poems
Tinchohs
Member
I just finished printing a big project with this paper...
I just finished printing a big project with this paper...
If you follow this advice, you should be 'golden'. I've been using this paper and printer combination to print a book project. I used the 190 duo version. A few comments:
1-If you are using the 300 grams version, as mentioned above, user the rear slot to enter the paper. No need to tweak the gap settings.
2-The MOAB Entrada uses Matte Ink.
3-You need to set the media type (in the Epson Driver / Printer Settings) to 'Ultra Premium Presentation Paper Matte'.
4-For B&W printing using ABW, in which ever software you are printing, you need to make sure to select 'Printer Managers Color'.
Hope this helps. Let us know ow it goes. m.
I just finished printing a big project with this paper...
If you follow this advice, you should be 'golden'. I've been using this paper and printer combination to print a book project. I used the 190 duo version. A few comments:
1-If you are using the 300 grams version, as mentioned above, user the rear slot to enter the paper. No need to tweak the gap settings.
2-The MOAB Entrada uses Matte Ink.
3-You need to set the media type (in the Epson Driver / Printer Settings) to 'Ultra Premium Presentation Paper Matte'.
4-For B&W printing using ABW, in which ever software you are printing, you need to make sure to select 'Printer Managers Color'.
Hope this helps. Let us know ow it goes. m.
rodt16s
Well-known
With ABW, I'm sure it doesn't use the paper profile (as said above the printer manages the colour)... to use the paper profile you will need to go with the colour and let PS manage the colour.
If that makes sense..
You can also adjust contrast, colour tone etc within the ABW sub menu
If that makes sense..
You can also adjust contrast, colour tone etc within the ABW sub menu
mfogiel
Veteran
I only have the R 2400, but there are a few basic things to remember.
1) In my opinion, you should print in AB&W mode, as it gives the best image quality. To get there, you need to BYPASS computer color management, so you need to tag PRINTER MANAGES COLOURS. Then, through trial and error, you need to tweak the ABW settings so that you get as close as possible to WYSIWYG - use small format paper for this.
2) As noted above, you need to make sure, for thick paper, to feed it through the proper slot, and chose this in the PRINT SETTINGS as well.
1) In my opinion, you should print in AB&W mode, as it gives the best image quality. To get there, you need to BYPASS computer color management, so you need to tag PRINTER MANAGES COLOURS. Then, through trial and error, you need to tweak the ABW settings so that you get as close as possible to WYSIWYG - use small format paper for this.
2) As noted above, you need to make sure, for thick paper, to feed it through the proper slot, and chose this in the PRINT SETTINGS as well.
Steve M.
Veteran
Even though it's still early over here, drop kicking an inkjet printer is the best thing I've heard today. Can I get a kick in too? I hate those things, and w/ good reason. Not just Epsons, all of 'em. They clog, they drink expensive ink like it's going out of style, they cost a mint to buy. Not much to like, really. And some of my favorite prints from the old 2200's so-called permanent pigmented inks have faded quite a bit. Even the prints I made w/ the carbon based black Eboni ink using black-only printing have faded in spots, and a lot of them have never even seen the light of day (like most photographers). They've just been sitting under the bed or in bureau drawers.
Now I ask you, how is that possible? How can something that's allegedly carbon based fade? Hmmm, isn't all life on this planet carbon based, and isn't all life here impermanent? I should have known. Didn't read enough Philip Dick or something, because that one went right by me. Or maybe the printer's tiny nozzles don't allow enough pigment to get through and it's mostly solvent? Or maybe it's a reaction w/ the stuff they spray on the papers? Who knows? All I know is that they have. Eleven years, and fade issues? Forget that, man. Which is why there's a big 'ol enlarger in the second bathroom now, hovering like some kind of gargoyle. Let's not even go into inkjet papers that have been made shiny white with impermanent optical brighteners. At least they tell you up front that optical brighteners are not permanent. I'll bet a dollar to a doughnut you won't be seeing any inkjet prints in a museum in a few decades. Actually, they probably won't accept them now.
Now I ask you, how is that possible? How can something that's allegedly carbon based fade? Hmmm, isn't all life on this planet carbon based, and isn't all life here impermanent? I should have known. Didn't read enough Philip Dick or something, because that one went right by me. Or maybe the printer's tiny nozzles don't allow enough pigment to get through and it's mostly solvent? Or maybe it's a reaction w/ the stuff they spray on the papers? Who knows? All I know is that they have. Eleven years, and fade issues? Forget that, man. Which is why there's a big 'ol enlarger in the second bathroom now, hovering like some kind of gargoyle. Let's not even go into inkjet papers that have been made shiny white with impermanent optical brighteners. At least they tell you up front that optical brighteners are not permanent. I'll bet a dollar to a doughnut you won't be seeing any inkjet prints in a museum in a few decades. Actually, they probably won't accept them now.
Vince Lupo
Whatever
Really goofy question, but I can't seem to activate ABW mode in my 3880 (I checked the owners manual, and there's no mention of this). When I click 'print' (PhotoShop CS5), then 'print settings', then 'printer settings', 'Print Mode' and 'Color Mode' are greyed out, so I can't adjust it. I have color handling set to 'printer manages color' but that doesn't seem to make a difference. What am I not doing right?
BTW I'm using Epson Hot Press Natural, which I assume is supported by ABW.
BTW I'm using Epson Hot Press Natural, which I assume is supported by ABW.
rodt16s
Well-known
__--
Well-known
It's on page 57 of the manual under the heading, "Choosing Advanced Black and White Photo Settings."
MITCH ALLAND/Potomac, MD
Nightshots from Tristes Tropiques
Download link for PDF file of 16-shot portfolio
__--
Well-known
I don't know what inks the Epson 2200 uses, but I have prints made with the Epson 7600 and 9880 printers that have been hanging in the steambath environment of Bangkok ever since these printers came out — you can check how many years — and there has been no fading. Incidentally, while the x600 series of printers were often subject to frequent clogging, the 9880 and 3880 I've used have had no clogging problems. And the idea of museums not accepting inkjet prints is simply pure fantasy.
MITCH ALLAND/Potomac, MD
Nightshots from Tristes Tropiques
Download link for PDF file of 16-shot portfolio
Vince Lupo
Whatever
When I have an image open, it's an RGB/8 bit. I click 'print', then I go into 'printer settings', both 'print mode' and 'color toning' are greyed out. So something I'm doing is not set up correctly, and it's not allowing me to even make a choice. If I go under 'color management', it says that it's turned off. I can't figure out how to turn it back on.
__--
Well-known
I can't help you much because I print from Lightroom, where, in the LR Print module, you first have to change Color Management from the paper profile that you have chosen to "Managed by Printer." (I think Photoshop has something similar.) Then, in the Printer Settings dialogue box (as shown in the manual), you can select "Advanced B&W Photo" from the drop down menu next to Print Mode.
One big advantage of printing from Lightroom is that Soft Proofing is much easier and less cumbersome than in Photoshop, but that's for color printing, as ABW does not provide for soft proofing, as mentioned earlier.
MITCH ALLAND/Potomac, MD
Nightshots from Tristes Tropiques
Download link for PDF file of 16-shot portfolio
f16sunshine
Moderator
Ian
Living in Seattle as you do should drastically reduce the value of these printers for one reason if not any other.... Panda Photo also lives here!
I won't print anything anymore. Just take it in to those folks.
Unless you sell prints for a full time living...It' not worth the trouble and expense of inks and papers and upkeep and space required.... and, and, and... etc.
Best of luck with your exhibit !
Cheers
Living in Seattle as you do should drastically reduce the value of these printers for one reason if not any other.... Panda Photo also lives here!
I won't print anything anymore. Just take it in to those folks.
Unless you sell prints for a full time living...It' not worth the trouble and expense of inks and papers and upkeep and space required.... and, and, and... etc.
Best of luck with your exhibit !
Cheers
Takkun
Ian M.
Thanks for the input, everyone. I think I might just take Andy's advice and get this batch done at Panda--they've done my photos justice for past exhibitions. I figured I'd at least play around with printing my own, since there's so much yapping around the internet about how you're not a REAL photographer unless you print your own work, and so on, so forth.
But I'll still do some experimenting. A few notes here: I am in fact using the MK matte black ink--it shows up automatically during the media type selection on the computer, and shows up on the printer display.
As for color management with ABW mode, I've tried it so far with Eric Chan's ICC profile and Moab's. I'll try turning it off. I've also tried printing in Color mode from the grayscale TIFF.
However, logically this doesn't sound like it would solve the banding issue. Head alignment, or something like that?
And a side note: it just occurred to me that I once was actually in trouble with the law back as a 12 year old when a friend and I found an old LaserWriter and a sledgehammer in a dumpster and our preteen tendencies took over. Maybe not the best course of action.
But I'll still do some experimenting. A few notes here: I am in fact using the MK matte black ink--it shows up automatically during the media type selection on the computer, and shows up on the printer display.
As for color management with ABW mode, I've tried it so far with Eric Chan's ICC profile and Moab's. I'll try turning it off. I've also tried printing in Color mode from the grayscale TIFF.
However, logically this doesn't sound like it would solve the banding issue. Head alignment, or something like that?
And a side note: it just occurred to me that I once was actually in trouble with the law back as a 12 year old when a friend and I found an old LaserWriter and a sledgehammer in a dumpster and our preteen tendencies took over. Maybe not the best course of action.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
What app are you using to print with? I don't see you list it anywhere.
I've been printing for the past 9 years with an Epson R2400 (now well past its due by date). And whenever I find the print quality suffering (rarely), it is almost always due to old ink, minor nozzle clogging, or the wrong setup for a particular paper. I do all my printing from Lightroom nowadays; used to use Photoshop CS and occasionally Aperture, but LR is more consistent and repeatable with regards to printing setup. Get it right, once, and it stays right forever it seems.
I use the paper manufacturers' setup instructions for the printer 98% of the time. 99% of the time they return near-perfect, consistent results.
The Epson R2400 is due to expire soon, there have been signs... it's getting very old and has produced a LOT of prints. It's been stunningly consistent and reliable for so many years. I'll replace it with the 3880, or whatever the current printer in that class is at the time. I find the Epson inks second to none and will stick with them.
Printing always has a learning curve...
G
I've been printing for the past 9 years with an Epson R2400 (now well past its due by date). And whenever I find the print quality suffering (rarely), it is almost always due to old ink, minor nozzle clogging, or the wrong setup for a particular paper. I do all my printing from Lightroom nowadays; used to use Photoshop CS and occasionally Aperture, but LR is more consistent and repeatable with regards to printing setup. Get it right, once, and it stays right forever it seems.
I use the paper manufacturers' setup instructions for the printer 98% of the time. 99% of the time they return near-perfect, consistent results.
The Epson R2400 is due to expire soon, there have been signs... it's getting very old and has produced a LOT of prints. It's been stunningly consistent and reliable for so many years. I'll replace it with the 3880, or whatever the current printer in that class is at the time. I find the Epson inks second to none and will stick with them.
Printing always has a learning curve...
G
YYV_146
Well-known
Seems like you have a clogged nozzle. I would try running a few test prints through to see if it cleans up.
It also seems that you might want to create a profile specifically for the paper/printer/ink combo you are currently using. Check to see if someone has made a profile for your paper, if not, then it's down to a trial-and-error process of adjusting for the particular ink and paper. My experience is that matte tends to always be trickier than glossy paper, and requires more pre-processing adjustments.
It also seems that you might want to create a profile specifically for the paper/printer/ink combo you are currently using. Check to see if someone has made a profile for your paper, if not, then it's down to a trial-and-error process of adjusting for the particular ink and paper. My experience is that matte tends to always be trickier than glossy paper, and requires more pre-processing adjustments.
YYV_146
Well-known
Also, for the sharpness you'll need to first resize the image to fit the desired PPI for the print size (300?), then sharpen as needed. Compare the screen sharpness at 100% to the print sharpness. If there still is inconsistency, I would check the ink or see if you have hardware issues with the printer.
__--
Well-known
Actually, no. Using the the Epson Advanced B&W Photo (AWB), the printer does the color management and no paper profile is used, unlike printing in the color mode.
MITCH ALLAND/Potomac, MD
Nightshots from Tristes Tropiques
Download link for PDF file of 16-shot portfolio