Very small field cameras

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thegman

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If GAS has it's way, I'll soon be acquiring a 4x5 field camera.

Portability is paramount, and also I want to try out movements like tilt, shift etc. to learn from.

I'm considering a Horseman FA or HF, or a Toyo 45A. Are these decent options? What else should I consider?

I don't think I want a press camera, as I want to learn about the movements possible with LF, and I don't think a press camera is ideal for that.

I've never shot LF, so a modern, as simple to use as possible, camera with new bellows is ideal for me I think.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Garry
 
I would seriously recommend a Mono Rail if you want to learn to use movements.
I learned on an old 4x5 Cambo and still have it today. These things don't cost much to get into (and as a result you can easily get out if it does not suit you).
 
Well, I want to learn, but I want to be taking this camera places, and fold up field camera would seem to be the ideal solution for me.

I can see myself travelling with it, so the cameras which fold up into a sturdy case look perfect for me.
 
My understanding is that the Wisner Technical Field camera and the smaller Wisner Field Expedition camera are the only ones will full movements - rise and fall in both front and back as well as shifts in front and back.
I bought a 4x5 Technical Field camera last summer at a very good price. I then learned how to develop 35mm and 120 color film before processing my own sheet film. All of this is surprising easy to do.
I am just learning how to use the 4x5. I have only taken a couple of photos but will take more soon.
Although it is reasonably portable, using the Wisner will require me to plan my shots carefully and be patient. LF is not hard to use. It just takes more thought and patience than any other format.
 
On Large Format Photography I've read that the Horseman FA is in fact a not too sturdy, entry-level camera. There was little contradiction in that particular thread on the statement too.

Never seen one in the flesh, but thought it best to share that view.

In the UK, there should be a fair deal of MPP's around, which are said to be very nice and tough. And what was that camera that Frank Petronio was shooting a while back? Norma? He had one with a smallish footprint as well, IIRC.

Hat's off to you, thought about starting in LF several times, but never actually started from lack of a darkroom (and skills!:D)
 
You could (should?) also consider wooden field cameras. Ebony are very nice ones but they're expensive as hell. There are also cheaper ones from Wista, Shen Hao and Chamonix (which I went for). I think the advantages of wooden filed cameras is that they often offer more movements and they're a bit lighter. The metal ones have other advantages, though.
 
For starting out, you'll be well served to get an inexpensive but high quality monorail with full - and this is important - obvious movements. Many of the pretty wooden cameras obscure their limited range of movements with hard to manipulate controls, so that in practice you waste a lot of time - or neglect - to use them out of frustration and time. While a monorail is definitely bulkier, in every other aspect they are faster and easier to use - SIMPLE, more versatile, robust, etc. Look for used Sinars, Cambos, Calumets, Toyos, Arca-Swiss, Linhof....

Since you can get a Sinar F for only $300 you can probably also afford to get a field camera too and have the best of both worlds... For $300 you can get a Crown Graphic (with a lens) and shoot it handheld with the rangefinder. It is also light and compact. For $600 you can have both types of cameras.... isn't that a no-brainer?

Of course you can buy an Ebony or Shen-Hao or Chamonix or Wista or Wisner or whatever else you want for more. Wood cameras are pretty, especially if you don't drop them and turn them into kindling.

I currently use a Linhof Technika V (solid, compact, well made, versatile) but I've used a lot of different cameras over the years. I really like the Linhof Kardan monorails because they are simply the best made cameras ever - but you need a very sturdy tripod and Linhof head to use them successfully. The classic Sinar Norma is very well made and versatile, also not too large for being a monorail. Arca-Swiss also makes wonderful monorails that are as light and compact as less capable field cameras. And the great late-model, top rangefinder Graflex Pacemaker Crown Graphics are the best for handheld and inexpensive wide angle use.

Personally I think wooden cameras are toys for rich boys and wannabes but I won't insult my friends any further ;-p You can do fine with wood, Paul Bunyon did.
 
Toho (monorail)
Anba ikeda (wood field)
Nagaoka (wood field)

Those are the most portable and light. Best LF camera i've ever used is the Chamonix 45n-1 (i think there's a newer one now). Perefect portability/weight/movements. If your going to shoot landscapes you don't need a camera with extreme movements. Stay away from the horsemans and the toyo 45CF. Pick your lenses then buy the camera since something like the wisner is good for longer FL's but suck with the wides (without using fiddly bag bellows)
 
I had a Nagaoka and the movements were a little loose when locked down. I now have an Ebony RW45. It is an excellent field camera, with plenty of movements for landscape and similar work. Even more compact would be the SW45 (or the RSW45 version) - non-folding on a short base. Check out the Ebony website - the camera list is on the left. The review articles are worth reading, if only for general background.
 
I used a Toyo 45A for about 18 years, and shot everything from architectural interiors, to jewelry, to food, portraits, landscape, architectural exteriors, and everything in between, and never felt constricted by its lack of movements. The only thing about the 'A' is that it does not have a revolving back (you have to remove it, then rotate it, then re-attach it), and it doesn't have rear rise and fall, or rear shift (only the swing function on the back, plus tilt). The front has rise and fall, swing, tilt, and shift.

All depends on what you want to use it for, but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the 45A. Other thing about it is that it's an all-metal body, so it can take a bit more banging around than a wooden model, I'd suspect.
 
Frank Version Two said:
For starting out, you'll be well served to get an inexpensive but high quality monorail with full - and this is important - obvious movements. Many of the pretty wooden cameras obscure their limited range of movements with hard to manipulate controls, so that in practice you waste a lot of time - or neglect - to use them out of frustration and time. While a monorail is definitely bulkier, in every other aspect they are faster and easier to use - SIMPLE, more versatile, robust, etc. Look for used Sinars, Cambos, Calumets, Toyos, Arca-Swiss, Linhof....

Since you can get a Sinar F for only $300 you can probably also afford to get a field camera too and have the best of both worlds... For $300 you can get a Crown Graphic (with a lens) and shoot it handheld with the rangefinder. It is also light and compact. For $600 you can have both types of cameras.... isn't that a no-brainer?

Of course you can buy an Ebony or Shen-Hao or Chamonix or Wista or Wisner or whatever else you want for more. Wood cameras are pretty, especially if you don't drop them and turn them into kindling.

I currently use a Linhof Technika V (solid, compact, well made, versatile) but I've used a lot of different cameras over the years. I really like the Linhof Kardan monorails because they are simply the best made cameras ever - but you need a very sturdy tripod and Linhof head to use them successfully. The classic Sinar Norma is very well made and versatile, also not too large for being a monorail. Arca-Swiss also makes wonderful monorails that are as light and compact as less capable field cameras. And the great late-model, top rangefinder Graflex Pacemaker Crown Graphics are the best for handheld and inexpensive wide angle use.

Personally I think wooden cameras are toys for rich boys and wannabes but I won't insult my friends any further ;-p You can do fine with wood, Paul Bunyon did.
Click to expand...

I disagree on many accounts. Yes, you can get a good monorail for little money and, yes, they're fine cameras. I use a Sinar P2 in studio (it's not mine) sometimes and it's a joy to use in that environment. But transporting that thing, especially in its case, is a nightmare. Sure, it's fine if you take a car and drive somewhere for a proper shoot but you cannot put it in a small bag like you can with a field camera. I know the F's are smaller but they're still quite big. The OP says he wants to 'take it places' which I assume means travel. I certainly wouldn't want to take a monorail on a plane.
As for buying a Crown Graphic in addition to the monorail, I guess that's up to the OP. Personally, I think they're not even worth the little money they sell for but others need to decide for themselves.

Saying wooden cameras are toys for rich boys (no girls) and wannabes is just silly. Sure, Ebony's are expensive but so are Linhofs and I'm pretty certain that there are more rich boys and wannabes running around with Linhofs than any other LF camera brand. We all know how much rich boys and wannabes prefer german brands over japanese :)

As we're on the topic of wannabes, there are probably more wannabes bragging about how cheap their equipment is than about how expensive it is. Both is equally ridiculous.
 
Well if you want movements, durability, and compactness... do what I did and get a Technika. It's heavier than a woody but it's stronger too. It even closes up with a lens attached, which only a few other cameras can do (the press cameras, the wooden Wista DX, and... not many more). I travel with it in the smallest commuter airline-sized Think Tank with a lot of film and a DSLR and a laptop. Going to an Ebony would save me 3 lbs on the entire outfit.

But... if I weren't an experienced photographer, the not-so-obvious back movements of the Technika or most, if not all, of the wooden folders, would be a deterrent to learning how to best use movements. That Sinar P, beast that it is, is a far better learning tool. But agreed, not for travel.

There are always these: http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/saber.html. Some guy on the LF forum posted a picture of his in a Domke F3x with four Grafmatics and other junk and it is very sweet.
 
Hey Garry, I have no idea of your budget but a lot of the good landscape photographers seem to swear by the Arca Swiss monorail cameras. Unlike other monorail cameras they are very light and apparently break down to a nice small size. They are however a bit pricey!
 
The best 4x5 camera I have found for all around use is the Graflex Super Graphic. Unlike the other Graflex cameras, it offers a full range of movements. It is also made of metal, rather than wood, and it folds up into a tidy package. I have a Super Speed Graphic, and I enjoy it very much.

A potential negative point is that the Super Graphic uses a different lens board for an electronic shutter release, but boards can be adapted or modified to fit.

Another good point is that these cameras are relatively inexpensive, but can be resold for what you paid for it should you decide that you don't like it. Toyo loved the design so much that they bought it, and produced their own Super Graphic camera in Japan.
 
Frank Version Two said:
For starting out, you'll be well served to get an inexpensive but high quality monorail with full - and this is important - obvious movements. Many of the pretty wooden cameras obscure their limited range of movements with hard to manipulate controls, so that in practice you waste a lot of time - or neglect - to use them out of frustration and time. While a monorail is definitely bulkier, in every other aspect they are faster and easier to use - SIMPLE, more versatile, robust, etc. Look for used Sinars, Cambos, Calumets, Toyos, Arca-Swiss, Linhof....
Click to expand...

Listen to Frank.
Get a sturdy monorail with a rotate-able back.
A 4x5 monorail is *not* bulky.
It's lug-able if not portable.
Stay within walking distance from your car/truck/etc. remember you are beginning in LF.

And if you have a healthy budget, spend some on a sturdy tripod. That will stay with you even when you've become an expert and have changed cameras multiple times.
 
shadowfox said:
A 4x5 monorail is *not* bulky.
Click to expand...

Compared to a foldable field camera it certainly is. Sure, technically you could disassemble the camera and take the rail apart for transport but that's not really practical.
Where you take the camera really has nothing at all to do with whether or not you're starting out in LF photography. And maybe that's an American thing but remember, not everyone moves around by car, let alone by truck.
 
Frank made many good points (though as owner of wood field camera - Tachihara 4x5 - I will shoddily overlook some of his comments ;) ) - a simple monorail would be the best way to learn about movements.

I myself got the Tahichara deliberately while I wanted to make lot of hiking and with light camera one needs only lighter tripod and head - so quite some weight can be saved. Now , because of different reasons, I strongly consider swapping it for something like Linhof Technikardan, Toyo VX125 or Arca Swiss Field - all of these are monorails (relatively light - around 3kg, but still far heavier than my Tachi which is around 1.5kg).

But you should definitely visit the large format photography forum (LFF)
 
He wants to take it places, so he needs small, light and relatively easy to set up.

For me, that points to a wooden field camera. I had a 4x5 Shen-Hao before, and never ran out of movements (now a Shen-Hao 5x7), but of course that depends on what you want to photograph.

Wat isn't told here yet by the advocates of a lot of movement, is that the lens has to be able to handle the movements too: for a lot of movement, you need a lens with a larger image circle, and that means more expensive, and usually more bulky too.

A monorail is fine in the studio, but in the field ...

A good place for info on this is http://www.largeformatphotography.info

Stefan.
 
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