Vision and Stuff

[bmattock]

Here's a question that's been sitting at the back of my mind for some time now, and from time to time it comes floating up unbidden and I must confront it. It has to do with what kind of a photographer I am (or will be) and what I need to say with my photographs.

I *do* shoot for the enjoyment of others. I admit that up front. Not all the time, and not always with joy in my heart, but I do it. I know that shots of puppies, kittens, flowers, pretty girls, and so on will always be welcome in some quarters, and there's good reason for it - people like to see those things. And why not - they can be lovely. And it is gratifying and rewarding to show a print to another and have them tell you that they like it and you know they mean it.

Sometimes I feel the need to express myself in other ways, and I don't yet know what those ways are. I *do* know that I appear to be the only one who shares my particular slant, as seldom are works I consider my best what anyone else considers at all.

My 'vision', if you want to call it that, is not necessarily dark, forboding, bleak, or discomforting - but it ain't exactly Ozzie and Harriet, either. I like exploring viewpoints that are seldom seen and less seldom understood - perhaps why I like Ralph Eugene Meatyard's work so much.

And I can say to myself all I want that it is not important that others grok my attempts - but that's not exactly true either. I value positive feedback and understanding - all artists do, don't they? No one is truly 'outside' and undesiring of any public response - else why create at all?

OK, so this is kind of a mushy, touchy-feely kind of question, but the question (in several parts) is:

* For whom do you create?
* Is it important to you that anyone (or everyone) like your work?
* Appreciate your work?
* Understand your work?
* Is it more important to find your own vision and share it regardless of response, or is true photographic maturity finding a vision that others find enjoyable?

And I'm intentionally leaving out commercial photography here - not to slight commercial phtographers or to suggest that they are any less artists in their own right, but to understand that their field requires that they produce art more or less to specifications. I'm speaking here to so-called 'fine art' or just 'art' photography.

So what do you think?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[oftheherd]

Well, most of my recent photography has been snapshot stuff of the family and/or family outings. So, I guess I create for my family as well as myself (since I just like to take photographs as much as about anything else).

Therefore, of course, I like it that others (my family) approve of my photographs.

I do often still like to take photographs that inspire me (even though not family snapshots). They may do nothing for anybody else, but if I like it, I will try to produce what I have envisioned. If others like those photos, great! If not, I can still enjoy, and feel bad for those who don't. 🙄

The same as to understanding my work. Whatever there is to understand about it, and assuming I understand it myself. For example, I used to love abstracts. I still do. Not many others do though. Can I explain those photographs? Hmmmm.

I think it a lucky person who can find their own "vision" and share it regardless of responses. If others like it, so much the better. But, you should be able to please yourself first. I think that is a more profound joy than only pleasing others. I don't mean to minimize pleasing others. Most people enjoy that and rightly so. What a miserable life if we all went about trying to displease others. But with art, how wonderful if you can do what pleases you first. If others like it too, then so much the better.

I guess the above isn't too profound, but it is what comes to mind. Interesting questions Bill.

Edit: Btw, is that attached photograph an example? Neat with the IP address, but ...

 

[bmattock]

Well, most of my recent photography has been snapshot stuff of the family and/or family outings. So, I guess I create for my family as well as myself (since I just like to take photographs as much as about anything else).

Me, too. Of course, for reasons I don't understand, when we have family get-togethers and I get the camera out, I underexpose, or I leave the lens cap on, or my film is out-of-date and heat-damaged - you name it - but they always come out a bit naff. No idea why.

Therefore, of course, I like it that others (my family) approve of my photographs.

Mine are a bit suspicious of my abilities and with good reason...

I do often still like to take photographs that inspire me (even though not family snapshots). They may do nothing for anybody else, but if I like it, I will try to produce what I have envisioned. If others like those photos, great! If not, I can still enjoy, and feel bad for those who don't. 🙄

And that's kind of what I'm getting at. I find it frustrating when NO ONE seems to find much of interest in a photograph that I find exciting. It's not that I want everyone to gasp in awe and worship me as a Great Artist - but a little nod of acceptance from those whose opinions I value would be nice. And when it doesn't come - and I'm not suggesting that anyone pat me on the back for things they truly don't 'get' or 'care for', then I wonder if I am saying anything of any worth. You know?

The same as to understanding my work. Whatever there is to understand about it, and assuming I understand it myself. For example, I used to love abstracts. I still do. Not many others do though. Can I explain those photographs? Hmmmm.

For me, I love abstracts that are abstracts within the real world, if that makes sense. Juxtapositions that create irony or state a common belief or a truism or what-have-you. Unintentional are best, but even intentional can make me happy.

I think it a lucky person who can find their own "vision" and share it regardless of responses. If others like it, so much the better. But, you should be able to please yourself first. I think that is a more profound joy than only pleasing others. I don't mean to minimize pleasing others. Most people enjoy that and rightly so. What a miserable life if we all went about trying to displease others. But with art, how wonderful if you can do what pleases you first. If others like it too, then so much the better.

I guess even DISPLEASING others is a valid response if that is the response you seek as an artist. Stimulating a nerve for the sake of doing it can be interesting, even if I choose to walk away after a bit. I admire an artist who can engage me to evoke an honest emotion, even a negative one, especially if they intended that in the first place.

I guess the above isn't too profound, but it is what comes to mind. Interesting questions Bill.

I do my best!


[/QUOTE]
Edit: Btw, is that attached photograph an example? Neat with the IP address, but ...[/QUOTE]

Yes, that's my photo and an example, such as it is. I took it from a moving car with an Olympus XA-2 recently. I am not sure what I like about it, but I just do. And I hadn't noticed the phone number in the form of an IP address, believe it or not! That's cool. I believe that is a 'european' style of expressing phone numbers, instead of the US '-' between numbers.

Here's another. Yes, I have shot much better technical shots. There are lots of things wrong with this photo from a technical standpoint. But for some reason, it means more to me than other photos I have taken of the same statue.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[Pherdinand]

I don't really know the answers. I just click because i find it fun to do so. Even I myself dont' like much of my photography. (But then Why do i post them on the 'net???)

But I guess that's fine, since i'm not a "fine art" photographer, not even a simple "art" photographer🙂
Good questions, anyway!

 

[bmattock]

I don't really know the answers. I just click because i find it fun to do so. Even I myself dont' like much of my photography. (But then Why do i post them on the 'net???)

But I guess that's fine, since i'm not a "fine art" photographer, not even a simple "art" photographer🙂
Good questions, anyway!

But aren't you an 'art' photographer? Unless you're shooting for documentation or commercially, or family happy snaps on holiday in Majorca, aren't you making art?

I once thought that since I didn't classify myself as an 'artist', then nothing I produced was 'art'. Well, I've changed my mind about that. I *am* an artist, because some of what I make photographically is an interpretation of reality, presented by me to the public. That's art (to me). I didn't say it was good art, but that it is indeed...art.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[FrankS]

Bill, this is the ultimate question facing all artists including photographers, and the most excellent post on this forum to date.

Let's forget about the snapshots we all take simply to record and event. Let's also forget about photos others ask us to take for them with or without compensation. What we're talking about are those pictures we take because we are trying to express our vision.

I've done the camera club thing where one shoots to impress judges in order to accummulate points. This involves following the rules and not doing anything out of the ordinary. This is perfect for beginning photographers and very helpful in getting them to improve their photography. There comes a point though when this type of shooting begins to impose a creative limit on a photographer farther along in his/her personal artistic development. This is like the moment when the Kung Foo student is able to snatch the pebble form the Master's hand, and the Master says: "It is time for you to go, Grasshopper."

So, my point is that if you want to develop your potential to its fullest, whatever that may be, you should at some point, after you've impressed the judges, go off in your own direction and develop your own vision. ALL OF THE ARTISTS IN HISTORY THAT WE RESPECT TODAY, HAVE DONE THIS. None of them made their art to please others, and many of them died before gaining any respect. Only from a historical perspective could their work be seen as significant.

I look forward to farther discussion of this penultimate topic!

EDIT: Sorry, it's not penultimate that I wanted to say. I meant to use a fancy word that means "most important".

 

[gns]

Bill,

That's a great post. We all probably struggle with the same issues. I know I do.

I wouldn't worry that others don't always appreciate what you consider your best work. Could even be a good sign as far as I'm concerned. Keep working at what you like.

Have you read the book "Beauty In Photography" by Robert Adams? Some ecxellent essays in there that you may find interesting.

Gary

 

[cp_ste.croix]

I create mostly for myself, and find that I am the hardest judge of anything I do. It actually bothers me more when people oohh and ahh over crap that I've taken and don't point out the flaws...but maybe I'm a negative person when it comes to my own photography.

Some people enjoy my stuff, and that is gratifying, but by the time they see it, I've already got about a dozen things wrong with it in my mind 🙂

As I've stated earlier, I also have very little emotional connection with my photos and tend to value them on an aesthetic level only, this means that I can always find a reason for liking my photos and am not usually left 'just liking it'. It also means hate I hate sunsets and group shots that I have taken 😉

Ah well...if you believe you're an artist you are an artist, but like any good artist you need a cohesive vision to animate your work, even if you never communicate it to others by any other means than your photos (i think that's what defines an artist as opposed to a craftsperson). And black turtlenecks, you need to wear lots of them.

I look forward to farther discussion of this penultimate topic!

What then, is the ultimate topic? 😉

 

[bmattock]

None of them made their art to please others...

I agree that pleasing others is not the highest priority when one is attempting to express one's vision; but would it be fair to say that it is in the mix somewhere? Ultimately, for someone's art to ever be appreciated, pre or post-mortem, someone must find it worthy of appreciating! And knowing that, and wanting to be understood and appreciated, would that not color one's attempts at communication?

Not just 'creating what sells' but perhaps more along the lines of 'creating what I have found others have an understanding of.'

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

What then, is the ultimate topic? 😉

As I understand it, Manchester United. Although I have no idea why.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[cp_ste.croix]

BOOOOO MAN U!

Go ARSENAL!

 

[childers-jk]

I agree with Frank about excluding record events. I, unfortunately, spend most of my photographic emery on such "record" events. However, there is a time when during those events I have a chance to express myself by capturing the essence of a subject, such as a particular person in deep thought or in unabashed laughter. Truly I wish I had more time to capture the street style, photojournalists pictures I wish to create. But I take every opportunity I can. One of my best captures was after shooting a friends family for their Christmas pictures, I caught my good friend playing with her daughters and captured the most natural expression. Both of the loved the shot, and I liked it as well. I am not a professional, nor do I consider myself an artist yet, but I hope to get there someday.

I guess to answer the questions at hand:

I create for myself, but I shoot for everyone.

My work is pretty armature, so if anyone likes it I am very excited.

Many times when taking "record" events, most people appreciated the records. Do they like the artist shots probably not therefore I don't really care.

Most people I know don't understand photography the way photographers do. Most people I know don't realize the work that goes into a great shot. From comp, to exposure, to darkroom. I don't think most people understand my photography I know, and I really don't care.

I think your vision is just that, your vision. If some else enjoys it, then great. If not, the great. I don't particularly like cubism, but I have started to understand the work. I really like paintings done by Jackson Pollock, but some people don't see them. I think a mature vision is one the expresses YOU.

Sorry for such a long post, but I have one question back to everyone.

How do you deal when people don't understand your need for photography?

Jeff

 

[gns]

It was too good to be true- a thread about photography instead of camera gear.
10 posts and it is morphed into... football!

Gary

 

[jorisbens]

For the ressurection of the original topic:

-I mostly shoot for my self and some friends, who also enjoy my photographs (unluckily most of my family doesn't really like my photography, they like the more traditional family snapshots)

-I seem to critisice my photos more then anyone else, because I know which mistakes I've made in which photo. So I immediatelly notice every mistake, eventhough some are very minor or almost innoticable for my friends. (This is the main reason why I stopped painting, I was such a perfectionist, that I could work for months on one painting, and still couldn't be happy with it.)

-My family doesn't understand my work, they think it's weird to take photographs of people that I don't know on trips.

And I want to believe that py photos are fine art 😉

But the thing that I enjoy most is the quest for new subjects (wandering is cities for days, kneeling in the middle of a street, drinking beer for hours in local pubs,... 😛 )

Joris

 

[dmr]

Wow, this is quite a thread here, and it got me thinking. My first response was to state that I tend to photograph people, places, things, as they are, as opposed to "events", such as a snapshooter or photojournalist might.

When I started getting into photography, I eschewed the stereotypical family type snapshots "this is me and Jay at the beach" which I considered to be that of the previous generation.

However, I do photograph "events", although I often don't consider them serious photography -- such as club events, office birthday parties, office pranks, 🙂 etc.

That's not really my interest in serious photography.

* For whom do you create?

For myself and for others, both to document and as a form of self expression.

* Is it important to you that anyone (or everyone) like your work?

No. I don't tend to take photographs with the intent of pleasing others.

* Appreciate your work?

I hope others can appreciate my work, even if they don't like it or understand it.

* Is it more important to find your own vision and share it regardless of response, or is true photographic maturity finding a vision that others find enjoyable?

My knee-jerk reaction is to say that I use my own vision regardless of response, but I do admit that I often consider what others might want to see, or at sometimes might not want to see. 🙂

I tend to photograph something I see that evokes some kind of feeling within. These feelings vary all over the spectrum. I used to concentrate on earthy and gritty subjects, urban scenes and the like, but lately I've been expanding.

I take some photographs to document, both for myself and for others. I take some to capture what I see and what I feel, both for my own interests and to share with others.

 

[Roger Hicks]

On art:

One: you have to please yourself

Two: if it were only for yourself you would never show it to anyone or feel the need to do so

Three: if you deliberately set out to alienate people and they don't like it, don't blame anyone but yourself

You can't please all of the people all of the time, but if you don't please anyone any of the time, you are probably doing something wrong. There is a great omitted middle in the Art Establishment, along the lines of 'Many people are shocked by great new art' being translated as 'New art isn't great unless it's shocking.'.

Think of Whistler's 'Nocturne in Black and Gold: The Falling Rocket' That was the one where he sued Ruskin, who said something to the effect that he never thought to see a coxcomb charge a hundred guineas for flinging a pot of paint in the face of the public. Ruskin's cmment was arrogant and stupid; Whistler's suit was even more so.

Cheers,

Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com)

 

[oftheherd]

I want to respectfully disagree with FrankS and throw out another aspect for consideration: Even when I am doing snapshots, if there is a chance to do so, I hope I am taking a more artistic shot than Ma and Pa Kettle with their Wallyworld dollar-two-ninety-eight special.

So, if we do that, can we correctly forget the "record" shots. Do we all not try to make them artistic as we understand (our) art and like to see it projected? Don't we use those aspects of composition we think will make them more interesting? Don't we often look for the decisive moment? Will those more often not be looked at and appreciated longer than our pure art?

Comments?

 

[oftheherd]

Edit: Btw, is that attached photograph an example? Neat with the IP address, but ...[/QUOTE]

Yes, that's my photo and an example, such as it is. I took it from a moving car with an Olympus XA-2 recently. I am not sure what I like about it, but I just do. And I hadn't noticed the phone number in the form of an IP address, believe it or not! That's cool. I believe that is a 'european' style of expressing phone numbers, instead of the US '-' between numbers.

[/QUOTE]

Oh, that's why I couldn't ping them. 😱

I assumed that was a dot behind the pole.

 

[back alley]

* For whom do you create?
* Is it important to you that anyone (or everyone) like your work?
* Appreciate your work?
* Understand your work?
* Is it more important to find your own vision and share it regardless of response, or is true photographic maturity finding a vision that others find enjoyable?

i create for myself only.
i do however like the feeling when others also like my stuff.

my vision is just that, my vision. no one else sees the way i do. no one else has had my life experiences and my interpretation of those experiences which has helped to forge my vision.
i often have shots that i really like and when posted in my gallery - i get no comments at all- on them.
this mystifies me.

other shots have an easily recognizable impact and i'm pretty sure when i post it that others will like it too.

my photography is just like me, i prefer to be liked, understood and appreciated. but i do not lose sleep if that doesn't happen.

a bit of a side note...
i hate snapshots.

i dislike sweeping statements made on my behalf.
if you like a question, like this one, and it impacts you, great! but it may or may not be the best question ever for you or me.
speaking for yourself only is a good thing. speaking for me is not.

joe

 

[gns]

I agree with you, Ofteherd. A family "Snapshot" doesn't have to be just that. It could certainly still be a good picture or interesting on other levels at the same time. Check out Lee Friedlander's "Family".
When I take family vacation shots or whatever, I still try to keep it interesting for myself as well. The result is sometimes heated edtiting sessions where My wife and I have different ideas of which ones are keepers.

Gary