Leica LTM Wartime Leica Collectors Beware Fake Engraving Camera at Auction

Leica M39 screw mount bodies/lenses
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LeicaTom

Watch that step!
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Anyone who`s interested in "wartime: Leica models and buys from evilbay, please take note that this in the following auction camera HAS FAKE ENGRAVINGS

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190231477398&_trksid=p2759.l1259

I had my doubts about this camera ever since the night the auction went up, but I just received information about it`s original delivery

This camera was officially an EXPORT camera and was NOT issued to the German Navy KM/Marine Kriegsmarine
- it was EXPORTED to BUCHAREST, ROMANIA IN AUGUST 1941
(very rare wartime era Export destination)

My information comes directly from official Leitz Factory Records, with special thanks to Jim Lager

Strangely enough the Summitar lens IS a REAL Luftwaffen Eigentum issued lens, so somehow this got mixed up with the forged engraved camera - so for what it`s worth to all, the camera`s NOT AN ORIGINAL MILITARY CAMERA

However the Elmar Lens is VERIFIED
LUFTWAFFEN EIGENTUM FROM DECEMBER 1941

The hood and filter are 1950`s Leitz note the "gmbh" and the lens cap "yuck" is fake Russian (maybe an idea of where the forged engraving got it`s start)

Too bad the camera would have been worth it`s weight alone by being a very uncommonly rare WW2 Export model, but now sadly defaced by fake engraving

I`m posting this as a favor to those who might be interested, the lens is worth quite a bit of money, ($500 to $1,000) but the camera is now just a novelty item, not even worth $400 - some people should just leave well enough alone when it comes to false engravings, save your money folks and don`nt bid high on this one!

Tom

PS: I`ll keep this thread going with any information I might have on FAKE WW2 era Leica`s that show up online for sale as a favor to anyone interested, collecting and shooting with these great, old and rare Leica`s is fun, but it`s NEVER fun to be ripped off, or pay too much money for something that could be fake......so this is a courtesy call and a heads up for people to see what`s going on and I also will give anyone advice within reason about cameras and see if any information can be gained about what they may find or see - thanks!
 
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radiocemetery said:
Hi Tom,

That bottom plate shown on this camera isn't correct for a IIIc either, is it? Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Steve
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Ohh yes, Steve........that`s original, part of the second half of the *first series* Leica IIIC production had the (auf/zu) releases on the bottom plate with the DOG-EAR!
Somewhere towards the middle of the Red Curtain production mid 1941 to late 1942 ......

Leo just verified this 100% with the help of some rare WW2 British camera publications

The Leica IIIC bottom was replaced with the standard round auf/zu release again in the late 1942/early 1943 period -
* FOR EXAMPLE: all Leica IIIC K`s have the standard round (auf/zu) releases*

The Dog Ear bottom plate didn`t come back to Leica till 1951/52 or thereabouts*

It`s sad this camera was NEAR MINT and a great example of a Red Curtain camera, just sadly now with the faked engraving

Without it, it could have been a $800 camera if it was unmolested, clean all original Red Curtain cameras are now very rare, while 80% of all production went to German Military or Civilian Photographic Services that used the cameras hard, also these cameras were the FIRST of the new Leica`s to fall into Allied hands during and after the war and they were used really hard by our armies too

.......so clean examples such as this one are a rarity by any account, just it`s terrible that any forger see`s a Red Curtain and right away is ready to make a fake

Thank god for people like Jim Lager who have researched these cameras and who have the records of the WW2 ear cameras and can verify them on delivery/date produced etc.

VERIFACATION IS THE KEY TO THESE CAMERAS WHEN YOU ARE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING THAT HAS A MILITARY ENGRAVING - it saves EVERYONE a great deal of worry and money :)

Tom
 
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LeicaTom said:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190231477398&_trksid=p2759.l1259

I had my doubts about this camera ever since the night the auction went up, but I just received information about it`s original delivery

This camera was officially an EXPORT camera and was NOT issued to the German Navy KM/Marine Kriegsmarine - it was EXPORTED to BUCHAREST, HUNGARY in 1941 (very rare Export destination)
Click to expand...

Bucharest is in Romania. Budapest is, however, in Hungary. ;)
 
Krosya said:
Bucharest is in Romania. Budapest is, however, in Hungary. ;)
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OMG!!!!!!

I`m sooo sorry it is ROMANIA!!!!!!!!

That`s where the camera was delivered too, ugggh such a mistake of the B`s

Once again sooo sorry, I normally was a very good student of geography, thanks for the correction LOL!!!!

Tom
 
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Bucharest makes absolute sense. Romania was suddenly full of German advisers around that time. There was a lot of political volatility, but the Iron Guard, ROmani's own Nazis, allied themselves with Germany in June 1941 - just in time to participate in the invasion of Russian. They thought it would be a walkover. That camera might well have seen a LOT of action. Shame it's been defaced.

Edit: my bad, echoed error corrected...
 
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The "M" on that alleged Kriegsmarine marking is so far off kilter from anything that I have every seen on any legit marked Third Reich object of any sort, that I would recommend avoiding any object marked like that.
 
Paul T. said:
Budapest makes absolute sense.
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Paul,

Just to make the delivery perfectly clear it was sent to

Bucharest, Romania - August 1941 *non military delivery*

From official Leitz Factory records

Hungray was a TYPO and MISTAKE on my part - sorry

I think this camera was a early/jam or stored away, while it`s nearly brand new looking and the Red Curtain is still intact - never used

Tom
 
Hard to believe that this camera would've seen such action, given how mint it is. As well, it looks like stuff was done to it in the '50s, like the IIIf type flash synch, and the vulcanite even looks like it's for a IIIf.

A very pretty camera indeed, but a little TOO pretty if you get my drift.
 
LeicaTom said:
Paul,

Just to make the delivery perfectly clear it was sent to

Bucharest, Romania - August 1941 *non military delivery*

F/QUOTE]
A mistake repeated on my part, sorry.

Hungary was, effectively, invaded by the Nazis. ROmania formally (and stupidly) allied itself with them, so this camera is part of a very interesting political story.
Click to expand...
 
Vince Lupo said:
The bidding just went over $ 2000.00....
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That`s too bad for someone`s getting ripped off :(

The LE f3.5 50mm Elmar`s worth about $1,000, would have been a good addition for someone who has a Airforce Red Curtain without a lens.....

This will more than likely bring a stupid amount, just too bad that the bidders have`nt seen this thread

Tom
 
Very interesting, no matter from which angle one looks at it - the forgery or the mint condition of a 67 year old camera. IF the engraving was genuine, a Marine camera sent to the capital Bucharest, a long way away from the sea, could be logically destined for a high ranking German official posted there, say the Naval Attache. That would add some folklore to the camera's history and explain its near mint condition, having spent its life in "private" hands so to speak than on a destroyer's deck!

I also happen to have a "civilian" export IIIC, assembled in July 1941 and delivered in a batch of 5 bodies to the Paris based photo-agency GAMMA, which is still active today! The camera has no red blinds (could have been replaced, if there ever were any) but it is in excellent cosmetic condition, with no brassing, scraches or dings, and with the original vulcanite. Expertly serviced by CRR in Luton, UK, it gives me great service with its 1946 coated Summitar and is a pleasure to use.

I feel quite attached to it as it was made and "started" -so to speak- life, only 3 months before my own birth.....
 
eia41 said:
Apologies for the double post, completely out of my control!
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Why don`t you go back and delete all but one of these posts please, real easy to do, just hit edit button on the posts to delete and then press delete, it will settle the clutter of the triple post

Please don`t "read into" the camera, it`s a forgery, not made for some high ranking Nazi - the information is directly from Jim Lager and the Leitz Factory records

Your GAMMA agency camera sounds very interesting, does it have any special engraving`s such as the DANA news agency did? And did you write Jim Lager about your camera?

Tom
 
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Well, so far, some people are biting, and the bidding is just over $2000 as of this writing.

The former-CCCP is taking a cue from the Kapitalist Pigz: whatever the market dictates, even if the market has no clue what it's buying!
 
Thank you LeicaTom for pointing me to the "Delete" button. As you can see, I am an RFF forum member for almost 2 years but with, comparatively, very few posts; hence the lack of experience... I prefer to read and learn, even at my age. As for letting my imagination run wild now and then, I made certain that my hypothesis was based on a capital IF! Fake cameras are an excellent opportunity for forum speculation, ringing of alarm bells, as well as humour.

Now, why would my humble 1941 built IIIC be of special interest to Mr Lager none the less? I regret to advise that there are no markings of the GAMMA presse agency whatsoever. By the way, Leitz records show that GAMMA received another batch of 5 or so IIICs in July, in addition to the batch my own belongs to. What intrigues me is what that little wonder must have photographed (in the hands of a photo-reporter?) during Paris's troublsome wartime period.
 
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eia41 said:
Now, why would my humble 1941 built IIIC be of special interest to Mr Lager none the less? I regret to advise that there are no markings of the GAMMA presse agency whatsoever. By the way, Leitz records show that GAMMA received another batch of 5 or so cameras in July, in addition to the batch my own belongs to. What intrigues me is what that little wonder must have photograph (in the hands of a photo-reporter?) during Paris's troublsome wartime period.
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Ohh Jim`s always interested to hear what`s survived as well as I am....so many unique agencies received Leica`s during the war, mostly 85% were non engraved and just the delivery/supply records show any clue to what happened to them, or what direction they took after leaving the plant..........a small wonder that in the chaos of WW2, Leitz kept pretty fairly accurate detailed records, I think mostly to keep the Reich`s troublemakers off their backs.....thankfully these records now survive and hopefully will be public record again, sometime in the near future

Tom
 
I just noticed someone on ebay with a low bid history paid $3,000 for this, well he got an original LE lens at least......(this gear was worth maybe tops $1,500)

Well, now he has to search for a real Luftwaffen IIIC Body, to match the lens with that`ll put him out another $3,000!

I bet that this fake engraved camera will be back on the market in less than 6 months as soon as the owner runs the serial numbers and finds out it`s not an original engraving........

Tom

PS: I seriously HOPE that I don`t have to add any more cameras to this thread, but as I do find suspicious cameras on the evilbay I WILL let people know here on RFF
 
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Vince Lupo said:
Tom -- What did you think of the vulcanite and the PC connection on this camera?
Click to expand...

Vince,

I think the Vulcanite was replaced (That stuff from Japan maybe?)

About 8% of the orginal production of the 1941/42 Red Curtains still have their original vulcanite, I know it`s a real low percentage
I know you know how bad that stuff is, doesn`t seem to have been the strongest link in the production quality during the war - pre 1946 Vulcanite is almost always dried out, misshapen, cracked and broken away from the cameras - if someone here in the USA could reproduce this stuff and make it affordable, I think all the collectors/shooters would fix their "wartime" IIIC`s up wth it......

The Flash Sync was 100% non Leitz, possibly a 1950`s German Photoshop addition, the camera came from the East Bloc (originally)
so anything could have happened to it since 1941 ;)

Tom
 
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