What makes Leica special with B & W imagery?

[fixbones]

What makes Leica special with B & W imagery?

I know other factors i.e photographer, film and developing matters too but if we exclude all that.......

Is it the camera or the lens?
Would it be the same if i have a 3rd party camera with leica lenses?

Not sure if this has been discussed. Sorry if it alrady has 😱

 

[dof]

If indeed it is special, in a physical sense it has to do the lenses and how they draw. The experience of using a rangefinder camera in and of itself doesn't dictate seeing the world in black and white or colour and the body obviously has no effect on either.

But more pervasively and perhaps unconsciously, I think it has to do with our collective associations with the images made by many famous and widely touted users of the camera. Many of them were most active during the period when black and white to a large degree was photography.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The older lenses had less contrast, and preserved shadow detail that often gets lost with higher contrast lenses. The difference is more pronounced in black and white film than full-color. Several older lenses that I've used, including some from Canon and Schneider, share these qualities.

 

[bmattock]

What makes Leica special with B & W imagery?

I know other factors i.e photographer, film and developing matters too but if we exclude all that.......

Is it the camera or the lens?
Would it be the same if i have a 3rd party camera with leica lenses?

Not sure if this has been discussed. Sorry if it alrady has 😱

When a monkey looks in a mirror, no philosopher looks back.

The camera is a light-tight box with a shutter attached.

 

[JoeV]

While the lens attaches to the scene special optical significances based on its unique qualities, the photographer manipulates the controls of both the lens and the body in order to produce the photograph. Therefore certain specific attributes of camera bodies may play a role in the photographer's interaction with the subject matter of real life, its ebb and flow, in the creation of the image.

Do Leica possess attributes as a camera body unique from other models? I would respond that as a rangefinder amongst a world of SLRs and P&S cameras it shares attributes unique to other rangefinders, which may impart some unique ability to the photographer in the capture of images from the field of real life. We would therefore expect other rangefinder camera bodies to also possess these similar attributes, if they indeed do exist, and the degree to which their features impart to the photographer these uniquely useful attributes.

~Joe

 

[Al Kaplan]

Nobody wants to discuss the recording medium? The fact that lenses and film and silver/gelatin printing paper have non-linear responses to brightness? Newer lens designs, improved coating technology brings us closer. Then there's the choice of enlarging lens and aperture. Whether you use a condensor or diffusion enlarger? They all affect the image in B&W. Original digital capture converted to B&W bypasses about everything, while scanning and then digital printing from the negative's image bypasses a lot of it. Those "defects" of silver/gelatin contribute as much as the lens choice to the look of the final product.

I suspect that many of us spent a few years trying various developers and films, seeking the perfect film/developer combo to achieve the look we wanted, and finally realized that there was a lot of truth to the old saw "The lousier your negatives the better the printer you'll become". If that "lousy" negative was the result of the lens then you still knew that you could make an eye grabber image from it. Still, you had to find and recognize that image from amidst the clutter of life before you pushed the button. Those fabled silver-rich papers of yore didn't do it by themselves.

http://thepriceofsilver.blogspot.com

 

[payasam]

What makes Leica special with B & W imagery?

No answer possible.

 

[chris000]

Your question assumes a belief that may not be shared by all

 

[feenej]

I'd say the people who use them.

 

[Pickett Wilson]

There are so many opinions of what makes a good B&W photo, from dark-fuzzy-grainy-contrasty to Ansel Adams sharp and clear that attributing any special blanket qualities to a camera seems a waste of time. As has been pointed out, photos shot with old Leica lenses look very different than those shot with modern Leica lenses. I think your thesis that there is something inherently special with Leica lenses in B&W is flawed.

 

[like2fiddle]

It has much to do with the lens, but as Al alluded to, it's not that simple. In my experience it has as much to do with the film, with developing, with printing, and probably more than we are willing to admit, it has to do with the overall appeal, or not, of the composition.

 

[ZeissFan]

Right, there is no simple answer to this question.

At its most basic, a camera is a camera is a camera.

And for that reason alone, a Leica or Contax or Canon or Nikon possesses no magical qualities. Older lenses do have a certain look, especially with black and white.

But in the end, it's the photographer's ability to compose an image that will be the most important factor.

I'll still allow that lens selection, the type of film and a photographer's comfort with his camera also have an effect on the image.

 

[Roger Hicks]

The camera you're happiest using will usually give you the best pictures, not least because it will also give you the most pictures. Some cameras suit certain styles of photography (and certain photographers) better than others.

As for 'drawing', the concept long antedates the internet, though admittedly there is no very clear agreement on what it means. Some use it to refer solely to distortion; others, to the overall look of a lens; and there is much in between.

Tashi delek,

R.

 

[Al Kaplan]

It might be nothing more than the feeling one gets from putting on a top quality suit that's tailored to fit you to perfection or a one-off designer dress straight out of the pages of Vogue Magazine. It inspires you. You have that confidence from knowing that you have the best and you have that attitude of not giving a damn that others can't recognize it, can't tell the difference.

 

[back alley]

marketing and a child like belief.

 

[mfogiel]

I think Leica has "time stamped" a period of mainly reportage photography when B&W was the mainstream, so this is where the "Leica look" comes from, although for example HCB made a lot of his best known images with the Zeiss Sonnar adapted to his Leica. the lenses were already of a fairly high resolution (but no aspherical surfaces yet) , but the coatings were still in the very early stage of development, so the lenses wre giving a detailed rendering, yet with a low contrast and a pleasant bokeh. Subsequently, the Rolleiflex era has taken over much of the reportage, glamour and fashion photography, so you could speak of the "special Rolleiflex B&W look", exemplified by the photos of movie stars during the roman "Dolce Vita" years. After that, the colour has become the dominant theme in photojournalism, so if you look at the Kodachrome shots form National Geographic, or Steve Curry portraits, most of them done on Nikon SLR equipment, then that was the "Nikon colour look", and so on. Today, I feel that for B&W, the single coated Leica or other brand lenses from the fifties and sixties still give a very interesting rendering, and in fact I have put together a "Silver B&W trio" of the first Elmarit 90/2.8, Summaron 35/2.8 and DR Summicron 50/2, which I like to use, for example, when shooting old architecture or scenes where the tonality is more important than ultimate sharpness.

DR Summicron

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Okay. Someone has to say it.

The Leitz lenses were highly corrected for Chromatic Aberration, more so than the Zeiss, Nikon, Canon, and others. Look at a collapsible Summicron, Summarit, Summitar, or SUmmar and note where the Infrared Index is. You'll find it at about the F2 mark. Most lenses have it between F4 and F5.6. When shooting visible-only, that means all of the colors fall closely together, very little dispersion. When shooting B&W, it means less smearing. Take that, and the lower contrast of an older Leitz lens, you get better (in terms of more shadows detail and less blown highlights) results from B&W images. I almost always shoot B&W with the older Canon 35/2.8, Schneider Xenon 50/1.9 on the Retina, or any of my Leitz lenses. All of mine are older. I do not get the results that I like when using the Nikkor lenses with B&W. The lens that I use on a Nikon RF for B&W is a Menopta 53/1.8. It is lower contrast, but not as well color-corrected. Someday, I'll hack a Summicron into S-Mount. Use the removable head and it's bellows adapter.

It all comes down to the Optics, and how the optical engineers optimized them. The difference between Zeiss and Leitz lenses is well-known, and you can find it described in older Photographic references. It's not a myth, and can be described in optical terms.

Some of the problem is the terms used to describe the difference. And if the difference is for the better or for the worse. I like shadow detail to be preserved, and highlights not to be blown. For that reason, I prefer a lower-contrast lens for B&W work.

 

[fixbones]

I personally think its the lens..... being low contrast and less/not coated. I have seen quite a few sample images taken by fellow RFfers using old leica summitars and elmars that i like very very much.

Also, can't be denied that most great B & W images and photographers were heavily associated with Leicas...so subconsciously, leica=great B & W pics.

I started this thread not with the purpose of kindling an argument. But to see what we all think and so far it has been interesting!!!!

I don't own a leica but i sure hope to in the future 😉

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The OP used the term "special", not better. The Leitz lenses are different in how they were optimized. In that sense, they are special. So are Apochromats. But if someone asked, "what makes apochromats special?", no one would have argued.

Go for a collapsible Summicron in Leica Thread Mount. You need to find a clean one, the front coatings were soft. No matter what LTM film camera you put it on, you'll get great results for B&W.

 

[payasam]

Brian, I don't question your words on Leitz's correction for chromatic aberration, but I will say that I have seen countless good photographs made with the lenses of other manufacturers. Zeiss and Schneider are only the more prominent examples.