ornate_wrasse
Moderator
I was checking out the offerings on my local craigslist and found an interesting listing for a Sawyer's Mark IV from the 1950's that uses 127 film. I thought it might be an inexpensive but nice addition to my camera collection as I don't own a TLR camera. And, I can still get 127 film from Freestyle. The seller was asking $170. I checked the completed listings on fleabay and found two completed listings for this camera, one was for $47 (13 bids) and the other went for $50.
The seller offered to sell it to me for $85. In his words,
" I'm willing to concede the price since you will be actually using it, as opposed to sticking it on a shelf somewhere. I'm sure if
you're patient, you can find one on ebay for less... that's kind of the point of online auction'
His reasoning seems a bit ridiculous, since I've always felt that things sell for what they are actually worth on fleabay.
He also stated he would not meet me halfway at a location in my city, as he had previously offered to do but, at that price, I would have to come to him. He did, however, offer to meet me in a public place.
I was perfectly willing to buy it for $50, but I sure as heck don't want to pay $85 when it's only going for $50 on fleabay.
I did some research and apparently the camera and lens are highly regarded. As far as developing the film, I'd probably be using b&w and developing it myself so wouldn't have to send it out to a lab that processes 127 film.
I'd appreciate what others have to say about the price he now wants for this TLR camera.
Thanks for your opinions.
Ellen
The seller offered to sell it to me for $85. In his words,
" I'm willing to concede the price since you will be actually using it, as opposed to sticking it on a shelf somewhere. I'm sure if
you're patient, you can find one on ebay for less... that's kind of the point of online auction'
His reasoning seems a bit ridiculous, since I've always felt that things sell for what they are actually worth on fleabay.
He also stated he would not meet me halfway at a location in my city, as he had previously offered to do but, at that price, I would have to come to him. He did, however, offer to meet me in a public place.
I was perfectly willing to buy it for $50, but I sure as heck don't want to pay $85 when it's only going for $50 on fleabay.
I did some research and apparently the camera and lens are highly regarded. As far as developing the film, I'd probably be using b&w and developing it myself so wouldn't have to send it out to a lab that processes 127 film.
I'd appreciate what others have to say about the price he now wants for this TLR camera.
Thanks for your opinions.
Ellen
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
In a nutshell: The guy sounds like an idiot and I would stay away from him.
As to the value, hard to say since we don't know the condition of this example. $170 would have to be a mint one, if you ask me.
I paid $25 for mine, ebay, but that was years ago and it had had a rough life (crank missing, some minor impact damage, but good glass and fully functional).
I fully agree with you that a well-advertised ebay listing will generally yield a realistic value (among private parties) for the given item and condition. Unless you have two morons getting into a bidding war, of course.
It's absolutely a nice camera to have and use, but they show up regularly enough that you won't have to wait long for a better deal.
As to the value, hard to say since we don't know the condition of this example. $170 would have to be a mint one, if you ask me.
I paid $25 for mine, ebay, but that was years ago and it had had a rough life (crank missing, some minor impact damage, but good glass and fully functional).
I fully agree with you that a well-advertised ebay listing will generally yield a realistic value (among private parties) for the given item and condition. Unless you have two morons getting into a bidding war, of course.
It's absolutely a nice camera to have and use, but they show up regularly enough that you won't have to wait long for a better deal.
sig
Well-known
He has a minimum price he wants to sell it for, he states that and you can accept or not.
You have to expect a higher price than ebay
1. Shipping cost (is it included in your 50 dollars)
2. returns/no deal (could you return the item on ebay? you might back out of the deal when you see the camera or you might not even show up)
Since the camera is not very common it is very hard to say what is correct price. There is one on your price reference list (ebay) selling for 228 usd right now, Compared to that 85 is a steal.
You have to expect a higher price than ebay
1. Shipping cost (is it included in your 50 dollars)
2. returns/no deal (could you return the item on ebay? you might back out of the deal when you see the camera or you might not even show up)
Since the camera is not very common it is very hard to say what is correct price. There is one on your price reference list (ebay) selling for 228 usd right now, Compared to that 85 is a steal.
retro
Well-known
I see one that closed recently on ebay for $47 but the
description says the seller doesn't know if the shutter works, so
that's basically a parts camera and not a valid price for a
working example. I don't see the $50 one you mentioned.
"Worth" is an abstract idea that assumes that used items have a
fixed value which they don't regardless of how many "price
guides" are published. In auctions things sell for what they sell
for. However, there is usually a range of prices that one can
normally expect for a particular item.
I have some 4x4 TLRs in my collection and I watch their sales
on eBay. Examples of popular models (including the Sawyers)
in good working condition as well as good cosmetic condition
which are properly presented on eBay usually sell in the
$100-$150 range so I would say your seller's offer is a good
one assuming the camera is in good shape.
Additionally, since the seller is willing to have you inspect the
camera before buying it and thus avoid shipping charges, I'd
say it is an offer worth considering if you want that camera.
If all you want is a broken camera or one which the seller doesn't
know if it works, then you should have no trouble finding one at
$50 on eBay (plus shipping, of course). And, if it doesn't turn
out to be as described you have the fun of returning it and
getting your money back (minus the shipping and return
shipping).
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retro
Well-known
What did he say or do that makes you say he's an idiot?
All I see is that he offered something for sale at a reasonable price
and even allowed the buyer a chance to take a look at it before
buying it.
Brian Legge
Veteran
If you are looking for a user, any reason you are thinking about a 127 TLR over a 120? I only ask as the convenience of 120 seems much higher (either you have a limited selection of 127 film or you roll 120 to 127 I assume - and then either develop it yourself or have to get your spool back?)
Just curious. I picked up a Rolleicord IV for less than $50 earlier in the year and have been having a great time with it. I've also come across yashica 124 variations in a similar range every now and then.
Just curious. I picked up a Rolleicord IV for less than $50 earlier in the year and have been having a great time with it. I've also come across yashica 124 variations in a similar range every now and then.
GaryLH
Veteran
http://www.keh.com/camera/Miscellaneous-Collectibles-Fixed-Lens-Cameras/1/sku-AC040090426170?r=FE
Just as a reference here is what keh is selling it for. 133
But they also have several yashica 44 for 45.
http://www.keh.com/Camera/format-Co...-Cameras?s=1&bcode=AC&ccode=4&cc=79244&r=WG&f
I agree with other poster why a 127 format camera versus a 120?
Gary
Just as a reference here is what keh is selling it for. 133
But they also have several yashica 44 for 45.
http://www.keh.com/Camera/format-Co...-Cameras?s=1&bcode=AC&ccode=4&cc=79244&r=WG&f
I agree with other poster why a 127 format camera versus a 120?
Gary
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ornate_wrasse
Moderator
I wasn't particularly looking for a 127 TLR over a 120. I just happened to notice it on my local Craigslist. I used to use 127 film when I first started taking pictures with my Brownie Holiday at the age of 9. I had thought of purchasing a Brownie Holiday for sentimental reasons. When I saw this camera I thought it might bring me back to a time when I regularly used 127 film but with a much better lens on it than a Brownie Holiday. And, of course, it's a much better camera. Since I develop film myself, using 127 film would not be a problem.
I am very appreciative of the comments everyone has made. it has made me take another look at buying this camera, and made me realize that there are lots of different angles I hadn't thought of.
Ellen
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
"Idiot" is the least I would call somebody who deals with me as the OP describes. "Crook" is really more like it.
He cut his original price in half. What does that tell you? He was willing to fleece the buyer. Any time somebody does this to me, I walk out. Ridiculous.
ZeissFan
Veteran
When I first started to buy cameras, I would try to outbid the other person. These days, I take this approach: Unless it's truly rare (not eBay "rare" or online forum "rare"), there's no reason to overpay for any camera. There are plenty of them out there.
So simply decide if you like the camera enough to pay that price. If not, wait a bit and another will turn up in short order.
127 is a nice format, and I've shot a fair amount with various cameras, including small folding cameras.
So simply decide if you like the camera enough to pay that price. If not, wait a bit and another will turn up in short order.
127 is a nice format, and I've shot a fair amount with various cameras, including small folding cameras.
Beemermark
Veteran
I have two Sawyer TLR cameras. Extremely well built cameras with great lenses. Film is still available and I develop the film myself.
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Beemermark
Veteran
My prices are firm. Since I'd be called a crook if I accepted less I guess I will never let anyone haggle my price down.
retro
Well-known
So, anyone who drops their price is a crook in your book?
You have an interesting view of life.
ChrisPlatt
Thread Killer
The Sawyers Mark IV is a rebranded Topcon Primo Jr. I owned the former.
It's a beautiful, very well-made Japanese camera from around 1960.
My only complaint with the camera itself is the EV-coupled aperture and shutter speed controls.
This was common among better amateur models then and though not particularly difficult to use, it will slow you down.
I bought mine to shoot superslides, 4x4 cm transparencies in standard 2x2 inch mounts.
These are projected in an ordinary 35mm projector. The larger image will knock your socks off!
Unfortunately Maco no longer sells Macochrome 127 film.
127 black and white film is available but the selection is poor, and it's hard to find.
127 film can be custom slit and respooled from any 120 film, but it is pretty expensive.
The Sawyers Mark IV is a very nice camera, but IMO from a practical standpoint
(i.e. long term film availability) you would be better served by a 6x6 TLR using 120 film.
Good luck,
Chris
It's a beautiful, very well-made Japanese camera from around 1960.
My only complaint with the camera itself is the EV-coupled aperture and shutter speed controls.
This was common among better amateur models then and though not particularly difficult to use, it will slow you down.
I bought mine to shoot superslides, 4x4 cm transparencies in standard 2x2 inch mounts.
These are projected in an ordinary 35mm projector. The larger image will knock your socks off!
Unfortunately Maco no longer sells Macochrome 127 film.
127 black and white film is available but the selection is poor, and it's hard to find.
127 film can be custom slit and respooled from any 120 film, but it is pretty expensive.
The Sawyers Mark IV is a very nice camera, but IMO from a practical standpoint
(i.e. long term film availability) you would be better served by a 6x6 TLR using 120 film.
Good luck,
Chris
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batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
@beemermark and retro above:
There is nothing wrong with a reasonable amount of haggling, and hence a reasonable amount of, let's call it, "optimistic" pricing on the seller's part.
That's not at all what the OP experienced, though. To recap: She finds two completed auctions at less than one-third of the asking price. On the mere mention of this, the seller cuts his price in half.
Now, you want to tell me that she's dealing with an honest man? Any chance I could interest you in some undeveloped land in Florida? I'll throw in a Rolex watch, and a car that was only ever driven to church by an elderly lady
On top of this, we're talking Craigslist. I have nothing against them but scams, stolen goods, and other illegal activities are commonplace there. IMO ebay is an order of magnitude safer than CL. At least you have some form of recourse with ebay, whereas the typical CL deal goes like this: You arrange to meet the seller in a Starbucks. You have a few minutes to form an opinion about his/her trustworthiness, and the condition of the item. You hand over cash. That's it, you are now stuck with whatever lemon you just bought.
I would never pay more on CL than on ebay. Quite the opposite, in fact. And yes, I am perfectly fine with shipping cost (usually on the order of $10 to $15) to have the item delivered to my doorstep, versus me spending time and gas to meet a seller.
There is nothing wrong with a reasonable amount of haggling, and hence a reasonable amount of, let's call it, "optimistic" pricing on the seller's part.
That's not at all what the OP experienced, though. To recap: She finds two completed auctions at less than one-third of the asking price. On the mere mention of this, the seller cuts his price in half.
Now, you want to tell me that she's dealing with an honest man? Any chance I could interest you in some undeveloped land in Florida? I'll throw in a Rolex watch, and a car that was only ever driven to church by an elderly lady
On top of this, we're talking Craigslist. I have nothing against them but scams, stolen goods, and other illegal activities are commonplace there. IMO ebay is an order of magnitude safer than CL. At least you have some form of recourse with ebay, whereas the typical CL deal goes like this: You arrange to meet the seller in a Starbucks. You have a few minutes to form an opinion about his/her trustworthiness, and the condition of the item. You hand over cash. That's it, you are now stuck with whatever lemon you just bought.
I would never pay more on CL than on ebay. Quite the opposite, in fact. And yes, I am perfectly fine with shipping cost (usually on the order of $10 to $15) to have the item delivered to my doorstep, versus me spending time and gas to meet a seller.
micromontenegro
Well-known
I paid $150 for one in top condition, and I don't regret it-not for a moment. Beats the pants off my Baby R'flex.
Jamie123
Veteran
@beemermark and retro above:
There is nothing wrong with a reasonable amount of haggling, and hence a reasonable amount of, let's call it, "optimistic" pricing on the seller's part.
That's not at all what the OP experienced, though. To recap: She finds two completed auctions at less than one-third of the asking price. On the mere mention of this, the seller cuts his price in half.
Now, you want to tell me that she's dealing with an honest man? Any chance I could interest you in some undeveloped land in Florida? I'll throw in a Rolex watch, and a car that was only ever driven to church by an elderly lady
On top of this, we're talking Craigslist. I have nothing against them but scams, stolen goods, and other illegal activities are commonplace there. IMO ebay is an order of magnitude safer than CL. At least you have some form of recourse with ebay, whereas the typical CL deal goes like this: You arrange to meet the seller in a Starbucks. You have a few minutes to form an opinion about his/her trustworthiness, and the condition of the item. You hand over cash. That's it, you are now stuck with whatever lemon you just bought.
I would never pay more on CL than on ebay. Quite the opposite, in fact. And yes, I am perfectly fine with shipping cost (usually on the order of $10 to $15) to have the item delivered to my doorstep, versus me spending time and gas to meet a seller.
I really don't see why this seller should be a crook. He put up an optimistic price, maybe without doing his research. Then he gets some interest but the interested party makes him aware of the lower prices on eBay. The seller then lowers his price considerably in order to meet the buyer halfway as he probably realizes the initial price was a bit optimistic.
I don't see anything even remotely wrong with this.
I also understand why the seller doesn't want to meet the buyer half way. Some people's time is actually worth something and $80 is not a big sale. We're talking small fish here. Show me the crook who will go to through this much trouble (negotiating on the net, meeting someone at a cafe, etc.) in order to make $80 and I'll show you a fool.
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
I agree with everything, except your conclusion. 127 film will be available for exactly as long as 120 -- if you are willing to slice your own, and hang on to enough empty spools. Plenty of information is available online. The 127 group on Flickr is a good starting point.The Sawyers Mark IV is a rebranded Topcon Primo Jr. I owned the former.
It's a beautiful, very well-made Japanese camera from around 1960.
My only complaint with the camera itself is the EV-coupled aperture and shutter speed controls.
This was common among better amateur models then and though not particularly difficult to use, it will slow you down.
I bought mine to shoot superslides, 4x4 transparencies in standard 2x2 mounts.
These are projected in an ordinary 35mm projector. The larger image will knock your socks off!
Unfortunately Maco no longer sells Macochrome 127 film.
127 black and white film is available but the selection is poor, and it's hard to find.
127 film can be custom slit and respooled from any 120 film, but it is pretty expensive.
The Sawyers Mark IV is a very nice camera, but IMO from a practical standpoint
(i.e. long term film availability) you would be much better served by a 6x6 TLR using 120 film.
Good luck,
Chris
Anybody who's seriously considering a 127 camera for more than occasional use should be aware that even today, spooling the film yourself is the only way to keep cost down. The remaining commercial choices in 127 work out to at least $.60 per shot (film only) in 4x4 format.
Beemermark
Veteran
Some people think everyone is a crook. Every deal is a scam. Every disaster a conspiracy.
Then some people, like myself, consider everyone an honest man until proven different. Even then I tend to give the benefit of the doubt. I'm not naive and in 50+ years I've only been scammed once - and that was my own fault.
As far as Craiglists, if your meeting someone in person and have time to examine the wares before you pay cash it's highly unlikely that your going to be scammed.
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
And to get back to the OP's question, some more recent pricing information off ebay:
Item no. 290436280314, good cosmetics, shutter described as "not opening," sold for $34
Item no. 290437130019, from camera$ who are known for moon prices about a factor of 3 above market value, described as fully working but with superficial wear and some missing leatherette. Did not sell at $148 BIN in at least two attempts.
Item no. 200474389807, Primo Jr., "This Camera is still in perfect Brand new condition. I have the original purchase receipt. I do not think this camera was ever used. includes leather case flash unit and original film. includes on sales receipt." Did not sell at $185 BIN ($20 S&H)
As I said from the start, $170 is mint price level.
Item no. 290436280314, good cosmetics, shutter described as "not opening," sold for $34
Item no. 290437130019, from camera$ who are known for moon prices about a factor of 3 above market value, described as fully working but with superficial wear and some missing leatherette. Did not sell at $148 BIN in at least two attempts.
Item no. 200474389807, Primo Jr., "This Camera is still in perfect Brand new condition. I have the original purchase receipt. I do not think this camera was ever used. includes leather case flash unit and original film. includes on sales receipt." Did not sell at $185 BIN ($20 S&H)
As I said from the start, $170 is mint price level.