When The Wrong Advice Is Given...Or Good Pictures, Bad Timing

kbg32

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There are some of photographers here on RFF who take pride in the fact that they know this or that famous person. Have studied with so-and-so. Been critiqued and found support by someone "in the know". But what happens if that advice is wrong? Just because they are well known, does that give them carte blanche to critque good or bad? Is there such thing as good or bad as we develop our vision?

We are all prone to bias. I thought this was an interesting example.....

http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/...timedia&action=Click&pgtype=Blogs&region=Body
 
Keith- I once had a guy working for me who claimed to have 25 year's experience. It soon became obvious that he had had 1 year's experience 25 times.
If you ask for advice you take what you get and use what you can. If someone is pontificating on a subject I don't see anything wrong with critically examining what they offer.
In the case of Szarkowski, I don't know what I would have done but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have put my pictures under the bed just because he didn't like them.
 
. . . Is there such thing as good or bad as we develop our vision? . . .
Dear Keith,

Yes.

"Good" helps us develop our vision. "Bad" crushes it.

Most people are insecure to a greater or lesser extent, and more willing to take criticism to heart. Those who disregard all criticism are likely to be either geniuses (1%) or arrogant incompetents (99%).

The responses to any criticism, if we are being honest with ourselves, must be "Is this a criticism of what I was trying to do, or of how I did it? And, if the latter, do I agree? How could I have done it better. Finally, do I care enough to keep trying?"

Cheers,

R.
 
I once wrote a scathing letter to the editor to "American Photographer" magazine back in the late 1970's about Mr. Szarkowski; however, I have since changed my mind about him. Timing is everything, but it would be interesting to see what he would have said to Vivian Maier if she had come to him for advice.
 
Is Vivian Maier really the genius that so many purport her to be? Have we really heard the last word on her?

My questions rybolt and Roger, are more philosophical. Surely criticism can do irreparable damage. I've seen this in "art school" and where curators, art critics, etc., have unleashed their ire on someone. Does someone with a reputation, or is the head of a prestigious organization know any better then one's peers?
 
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder? Anybody? A Picture only a mom could love, is still a picture ;]

As a hobbyist, I am more interested in having fun.
 
K- one of the many stories of individuals who had rejection and packed up versus others who continued and either still not had the outcome that they wanted and the very few who eventually did…. its what we think about before we sleep and when we can't sleep, you never know. the magical aspect of life…...
 
My questions rybolt and Roger, are more philosophical. Surely criticism can do irreparable damage. I've seen this in "art school" and where curators, art critics, etc., have unleashed their ire on someone. Does someone with a reputation, or is the head of a prestigious organization know any better then one's peers?[/quote]


To me the validity of a critic has to be based on their experience. They don't need to be a good artist themselves but they do need to have studied the art and be knowledgeable about the genre. Beaumont Newhall is a good example of a critic and curator who was not a 'great' photographer. Fred Picker, no matter what you think of his subject matter, was both a good photographer and critic to those who attended his workshops.
A friend of mine studied at MIT with Minor White. Minor White was a harsh critic of his student's work and discouraging to those who he deemed to be lacking in vision. My friend taught at a well-known midwest university until his recent retirement. He was also a harsh critic but was also supportive of all of his students and their work.
In other words, I don't know the answer.
 
IMO the purpose of a criticism should be to help the photographer in developing his work. The photographer should evaluate with his own mind the advice, take a ideas out of any critic which complement his project, ideas which can add something. A negative criticism can mean different things, the subject is uninteresting because already seen so many times, because the technical aspect is poor, because the editing is not tight enough, because...
Nothing is absolute as nothing is perfect...there is room for improvement...
robert
 
Does someone with a reputation, or is the head of a prestigious organization know any better then one's peers?

Well, they could have more experience viewing a variety of work and have built knowledge from working in the field no? I guess it depends on who your peers are though. However, it's still only one opinion and even experts are wrong at times. What Szarkowski said wasn't wrong and it should have just made Will Brown work harder. Sometimes the art world is always looking for the newest thing, but when it comes to Will Brown's style of photography (a style I happen to like the most)... it's documentary work and it's not always important to have a new style.

I had a well known photographer many years ago say that he could tell that I was seeing, but then ripped apart my photos anyway. He was right in his assessment though, so it was constructive to me.

You choose who to trust and who not to by if you think their work is good or not IMO.
 
On the one hand you have to have your own drive and judgement, on the other Szarkowski was right, these pictures have nothing in them, besides the date.
 
Of course, we are interpreting words spoken many years ago, taken out of context of a meeting etc etc. But that won't stop me from saying .....

I didn't read what Szarkowski said as "criticism". It reads to me like very good tutorial advice - find your own "vision".

Who knows what was said exactly and how it was intended. But for sure, my opinion is that the young photographer over-reacted to what was said to him. Good to know that his career turned out okay and he is now getting his 15 minutes, but you know - he took it badly.

A very good friend once said to me "I want to get into photography. Would you please critique these pictures". Well, I did.

Happily we are still friends and we came to understand how we each interpreted "get into photography". He could have taken it very badly and slashed my tires.
 
Those photographs are not impressive, not one of them... Maybe J.S. was a bit rude, but at least he was honest, and he was kind of right too, IMO. No interesting or moving content, and no outstanding labour from the photographer. Just my personal opinion, and I respect all other opinions here, because what's good or bad has a subjective part at least.
Serious, decent, clear criticism is good in general. Maybe in this case it helped the photographer.
Cheers,
Juan
 
The pictures are OK but Szarkowski was absolutely correct to point out that they are derivative of Atget and Evans. This is obvious.

The difference now is that they have aged, the world they depicted has gone and they now have their own intrinsic value as vintage photographs of a bygone era. In other words, for all intents and purposes, looked at now by the casual viewer they may as well have come from the same eras in which Atget and Evans were photographing. To us they share with the early masters the patina of exoticism of "the past" - that with which we no longer have (or may never have had) any contact, but that we may remember with a certain misty eyed fondness.

Szarkowski's criticism/constructive advice is every bit as valid today: go out and take facsimiles of these pictures now and they remain unoriginal; they are not your vision, you are appropriating someone else's vision to your own circumstances. It is infinitely possible to approach any subject copying someone else's style - it is only when something new is created that things get interesting.
 
How many young photographers have a truly unique directed vision? It seems a shame that in spite of what was said, he didn't keep photographing. A unique stylistic vision is not something that happens immediately. Maybe for some, but a some life experience, time, work, that probably what was all that was needed. If he kept shooting, it would have been interesting to see what his work would have been like 10 - 20 years on.
 
[...]these pictures have nothing in them, besides the date.
Perhaps that's so. But I don't see anything necessarily wrong with taking photos to document things as they are now, with a view to the future.

But that also depends on context - it sounds to me as if what happened here is that Mr Brown was documenting his neighbourhood then presented some of his results, which probably did transcend simple documentation, as something artistic - above and beyond the documentary aspects. Mr Szarkowski seems not to have said that wasn't so, but simply said that the way they went beyond simple documentation was in a derivative style. Which appears to have discouraged Mr Brown.

Maybe I'm reading too much in to this, but it seems to me that Mr Brown was seeking praise ("haven't I executed these well?") while Mr Szarkowski was looking for "original" rather than "well executed". Perhaps along the lines of "why do I need another Atget or Evans? I already have Atget and Evans". It may be that Mr Szarkowski should have been a bit more polite, or more considerate of Mr Brown's sensibilities. But I'm sure he had an endless stream of "Mr Browns" coming to see him, presenting their wares, and that may have become wearing. In that context, he might just have been having a bad day (my reading is that he had rather a lot of such bad days, and didn't react well to them).

In any event, it doesn't appear to have stopped Mr Brown from taking photographs. It seems that he persued a different path, but still in the world of the arts. Might it not be that Mr Szarkowski's advice ended up giving us an excellent professional sculptural restorer, who took some fairly decent photographs as well? Which we can now enjoy. Even if that's primarily for the date, at least they also seem reasonably well executed.

As someone who's day job doesn't read "photographer" I'd be pretty happy if people thought my photographs were reasonably well executed.

...Mike
 
Szarkowski didn't say anything wrong. And mfunnell is probably right as well regarding the string of Mr. Browns coming his way... buy Keith's point about a unique vision coming your way immediately is true as well. How many on RFF have a unique vision? There are plenty of derivative photographers getting praise out there...
 
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