Which one?

Fabian

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Hello!

I am looking for a lens for my IIf. It has to be compact, so I am down to those:
- Summitar 2,0 50
- Summicron 2,0 5cm (collapsible)
- Elmar 2,8 5cm

At the moment I am using an I-22 which is alright, bur sometimes I want a bit more sharpness and contrast. So what are the differences between the cron and the summitar? And how can the Elmar hold up? I need it for alround shooting, and it can be a little soft wide open for portrait.

Which lens would you recommend?

Thanks for any help

Fabian
 
The answer is a resounding Yes,

I am sure they will all be recommended.

The Summicron will be most difficult to find as you need one in LTM mount. That said, it will show more sharpness and contrast than the Summitar. The Summitar is highly regarded as having a wonderful "glow" and signature, very appealing for portrait work. The Elmar most likely will be sharper hand have slightly more contrast than the collapsible Summicron. Not as much so as the later Summicrons, but more than the collapsible.

If compact is your need, then look to replace your ID-22 with the real deal Elmar 3.5 which will mate perfectly with your camera.
 
I am lucky to have a good example of the Summitar and a good uncoated Elmar after it was cleaned. The Elmar is smaller but the F stops are around the face of the lens and hard to set with a hood on. Both the older Elmar and Summitar can be difficult to fit with hoods and filters. For ease of use I would go with the Summitar. The Summicron might be the best of the three for ease of use and image quality being newer, but I have never used one. There are some sample images shot with a Summitar here http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=557 if that will help.

Nikon Bob
 
Your summitar shots look really good. Thats what I am looking for. Now I just would like to know if the 2,8 Elmar is as good. Because it would be even more compact and I don't need the extra stop.

Thanks so far

Fabian
 
Fabian

The Elmar that I have is the F3.5 one and the F2.8 model is newer and might be bigger. The test with the old Summitar cured me of looking for a new used Summicron in M mount.

Nikon Bob
 
I'm about to go down into my basement darkroom to print some test shots comparing an M-Summicron (Rigid) and an M-Summitar (has anyone else come across an M -Summitar?)

The reason for my test is that I took some portraits last week using the Summicron and Summitar and - except for full aperture - the Summitar photos looked technically better (ie eyes sharper). I thought perhaps the difference was a random one, possibly due to camera-shake (1/60th @ f/4),so yesterday I did some test shots using a solid Benbo tripod. Viewing the negs through a loupe, I can't see any difference (apart from at f/2, where the Summicron is slightly more contrasty) so I'm going to have to print the pictures of my bookcase (!) to declare a 'winner'. Both have been recently CLA'd by Malcolm Taylor (UK Leica-Guru), so in that sense it's a fair test, but wouldn't you expect a 1960's Summicron to out-perform a 1946 Summitar at f/4? I'll report back after my session in the darkroom.

Best wishes,

Seán
 
I once owned an LTM collapsible Summicron 50mm lens, but I sold it and got an M mount verion of it. I should have kept the LTM lens. The collapsible Summicron is an excellent lens. I like my Elmar 50/3.5, which is slower and less contrasty than the Elmar 50mm/2.8.
 
Can anybody tell me the differences between the Elmar 2.8 and the Summitar.
I mean performancewise. Which are their individual strenghts and weaknesses:

Thanks
 
I mean no disrespect at all, but a sound approach to your dilemma is to buy and try. In my limited experience I have been surprised and delighted by glass that isn't universally praised. For eg, my fav 50s are the Summarit and the Elmar 2.8, despite having wrung out a DR Cron and played (recently) with a Lux, both of which get strong reviews. Why? Well, the Summarit is very kind to faces wide open. The Elmar has such a nice balance of sharpness and contrast - and it handles so nicely. The DR Cron is quite sharp, harsh in a way to faces. The Lux is just too big and expensive.

It's best to try the glass yourself and see what pleases you. You can sell and buy around here pretty easily.

Good luck.
 
If you want soft portraits (Rover's "glow"), a wide open Summitar will give them. Stopped down, it's about as good as the Summicron for general work: if you watch out for its notorious proneness to flare (which it shares with the Summar and, above all, with the Summarit). The 50 mm Elmars do not show this "variable contrast" characteristic and are about as compact as lenses can get. As Nikon Bob says, the aperture setting lever on the front can be fiddly. There was a hood made (can't remember its name), though, which got around this problem. The Summitar, by the way, takes filters with an unusual tapered thread. Perhaps you should wait for Sean's f/4 portraits of his no doubt handsome bookcase. In which pictures are the dogs' ears of the books the sharpest, etc.?
 
Sean Moran said:
I'm about to go down into my basement darkroom to print some test shots comparing an M-Summicron (Rigid) and an M-Summitar (has anyone else come across an M -Summitar?)

The reason for my test is that I took some portraits last week using the Summicron and Summitar and - except for full aperture - the Summitar photos looked technically better (ie eyes sharper). I thought perhaps the difference was a random one, possibly due to camera-shake (1/60th @ f/4),so yesterday I did some test shots using a solid Benbo tripod. Viewing the negs through a loupe, I can't see any difference (apart from at f/2, where the Summicron is slightly more contrasty) so I'm going to have to print the pictures of my bookcase (!) to declare a 'winner'. Both have been recently CLA'd by Malcolm Taylor (UK Leica-Guru), so in that sense it's a fair test, but wouldn't you expect a 1960's Summicron to out-perform a 1946 Summitar at f/4? I'll report back after my session in the darkroom.

Best wishes,

Seán


I have never come across an M mount Summitar. Sounds like you are seeing what I was without a Summicron for comparison so I look forward to your comparison shots.

Nikon Bob
 
Here's the promised test results (Summicron vs. Summitar)

Firstly, the differences are such that I don't think they would show up on a computer monitor.

Secondly, the Summicron 'won' this little informal test, but I would be completely happy using the Summitar exclusively if I had to (for my type of photography: street, portaiture and travel). All of the photographs were 'good enough' for wall-display (if you like pictures of book-cases on your wall!) even the ones at full aperture.

I photographed a book-case of about 3ft x 5ft, containing about 250 books. The camera was loaded with HP5+ rated ISO 200 and placed about about 6ft away, on a sturdy tripod, using a cable release and barn-door lens-hood. I printed the photographs full-frame on 10 x 8 glossy RC multigrade at grade 2.5, using a Nikon lens stopped down two stops, the focus being checked with a Paterson focus-finder.

At f/2, both lenses produced slightly soft, lowish-contrast results. This was an attractive softness though (great for portraits) and the titles of books could still be read. White lettering had a sort of subtle 'glow' around it - if you'll excuse the term - and the Summitar exhibited this effect more than the Summicron. A non-photographer volunteer immediately picked out the Summicron photograph as sharper.

At f/4, the Summitar caught up with the Summicron - in fact the volunteer thought that the Summitar was sharper. However under a loupe, small lettering (such as the publisher's name in upper-case font 12 or 13) was readable from the Summicron, but less so from the Summitar. A strange phenomenon is that some books beyond the plane of focus were sharper on the Summitar, so perhaps the flatness of field is less on the Summitar? I declare the test at this aperture to be a draw.

At f/8, the Summicron was clearly ahead again. The image was sharp with lovely contrast. The Summitar had less contrast and some of the white lettering on book-titles was slightly smeared. The non-photographer volunteer picked the Summicron out as the winner without hesitation.


As a further test, I photographed the gothic splendour of Queen's University Belfast on a sunny day at half-way between f/8 and f/11. Both would look fine on the wall. The Summitar gave a more 'retro' look, but fine detail (such as the latticed windows) was clearer on the Summicron. The volunteer picked out the Summicron image as sharper (she felt that it was more 'embossed-looking') and a check with a loupe backed this judgement up.

So there we are.

Not a scientific test, but enough to convince me that my 1946 Summitar-M is nearly as good as my 1960's rigid Summicron. The Summicron is somehow more 'polite' though. It perhaps lacks the retro character of the Summitar, but is more consistent across the aperture-range. For general use, either lens is fine. For portraiture, the Summitar at f/2 is kinder. The Summicron has the advantage of easily-obtainable lens-hoods and filters and a marginally better performance in terms of perceived sharpness at all apertures (with the possible exception of f/4)

Cheers,

Seán.

PS If you really want to see some of the comparison photographs, I can scan the prints at work. Let me know if this would be helpful.
 
Thanks for that information. I think I am going for a Summitar now. I hope I will find a good one.

Thanks everybody for your help

Greetings from a "spring is finally here" Germany


Fabian
 
Sean, your precise methodology and clear descriptions make this lens test very worthwhile and informative, thank you!

Frank (graduate of Queens University, Kingston, Ontario)
 
Fabian I have an old FED I-22 and a 1949 Elmar 5cm/3.5. Yes the Elmar is sharper but you need a loupe to see the miniscule difference. The I-22 has more contrast than the Elmar. The I-22 cost $19 and the Elmar $140. I know the FSU lenses have wide sample variation and maybe you have one on the poorer side, but take Mike's advice and give a possible alternative a tryout. You may be surprised.

 
Well, I did have both an I-50 and 3.5 Elmar until just this weekend. Actually, the I-50 is in a box in my car to be left at the post office tomorrow. Performance is very good and comparable. Like Peter says, there may be some variance in quality between two like FSU lenses. My Elmar is sharper than the I-50 I am sending off, noticeable yes, by a lot, no. The bigger difference is in the fit and finish of the German lens, it clearly is of a better manufacturing quality. The Industar is younger than my Elmar, but the Industar is much more worn, particularly in what seems to be the most wearable place, around the infinity lock. Engraving and general fit is much tighter on the German lens. Physically, they are similar, thought the I-50 has a longer collapsible tube. Keep this in mind when using it. It collapsed into my Canon IV SB2 with only a mm to spare, I measured. Be sure to measure other cameras to ensure you will not be hitting anything important in your potentially expensive camera when using a $15 lens. Here are some comparison photos of the two.
 

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Sean

Thank you for taking the time to do the test. Looks like you would have spend much more for little realworld gain.

Nikon Bob
 
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