Why is mirror blackout a problem?

Keith

Keith

The best camera is one that still works!
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I know this has been discussed to death when comparing the function of an SLR to a rangefinder and I do agree that in some areas the rangefinder system has superiority ... but I can't get my head around the theory that mirror blackout is any problem and really has any relevance.

Granted ... a rangefinder's viewfinder is a beautiful thing. You have a unique set of floating framelines that allow you to see outside the framed image and in many situations I agree that this is a huge bonus but once you press that shutter it's all over red rover and the exposure cycle commences. You are taking the photograph from the time you make that decision to slam your pinky down on the shutter button and having a mirror flip up and block the viewfinder really has no effect on the end result. What you saw and what you decided you wanted to capture was in that viewfinder prior to your physical action of triggering the exposure and be it SLR or rangefinder there is really no difference because you can't alter what will happen past that point ... unless you're a 'time lord' of course! :rolleyes:

I have my fireproof suit at the ready so please feel free to shoot me down in flames! :p
 
It's true that by the time you press the shutter you have finished composing. However the mirror blackout eliminates or decreases significantly, at least theoretically, the flow of information you may have on the actual exposure. You will not know, for example, if someone has blinked, moved, smiled or not smiled, or whether your flash has fired, etc., and whether you will need to make another exposure.

The remedy to mirror blackout is the brute force solution: machine gun and bracket everything so that you get the exposure you want.
 
telenous said:
It's true that by the time you press the shutter you have finished composing. However the mirror blackout eliminates or decreases significantly, at least theoretically, the flow of information you may have on the actual exposure. You will not know, for example, if someone has blinked, moved, smiled or not smiled, or whether your flash has fired, etc., and whether you will need to make another exposure.

The remedy to mirror blackout is the brute force solution: machine gun and bracket everything so that you get the exposure you want.
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That is one point that can't be disputed I agree ... and I have noticed sometimes when taking a shot with a rangefinder that I will see someone shut their eyes at the exact moment of exposure.
 
But with most photographs posted here on RFF, for example, the moment is past and you couldn't have reshot the photo anyway. The argument is against the reality. The only photography that is to some degree repeatable, portrait photography, is owned by SLR's, not rangefinders.

The only photos I shoot where I'm concerned with people blinking or having funny looks on their faces are posed grip & grin shots. And I alway shoot two or three shots, just to be sure. Everything else is gone once I push the shutter button.
 
Keith said:
That is one point that can't be disputed I agree ... and I have noticed sometimes when taking a shot with a rangefinder that I will see someone shut their eyes at the exact moment of exposure.
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People do the blinking thing on purpose; did you ever try an SLR without an auto-return mirror? That may alter your thinking

Do you get Dr Who in Oz Keith?
 
Sparrow said:
People do the blinking thing on purpose; did you ever try an SLR without an auto-return mirror? That may alter your thinking

Do you get Dr Who in Oz Keith?
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I thought it was an Oz program ... what other explanation could there be for David Tennant's insanity? :p
 
I don't think being a Timelord would have much to do with it, because I see the Doctor using a Speed Graphic for some reason...
 
I've been hauling around my RB67 for the last few weeks for a personal project I'm working on. Reminds me why I love auto return mirrors. ;) That big mirror comes up and the world just disappears!
 
telenous said:
You will not know, for example, if someone has blinked, moved, smiled or not smiled, or whether your flash has fired, etc., and whether you will need to make another exposure.
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And you can actually see that anything of the above happened during the 1/30s or less exposure time slice within your 1/4s finger press action? I don't buy that. Shutter times are too short to notice what happens during a handheld exposure. Even if you have become so accustomed to your camera that you are right in your estimate of the shutter action moment (which is harder than it sounds, much of the clicking and clunking comes from secondary gearing running before or after the actual shutter, so that hearing is no safe indicator, and at the short times in question a 50ms error will already place you entirely wrong) the time is still too short to be able to perceive it as a timeslice separate from the flow of action. Due to the same, you actually can barely perceive the SLR mirror blackout as such, at least on fast SLRs ever since the Nikon F2, but will only see a period of darkening in a continuous visual information flow.

Finder vision during exposure might be relevant if you do long exposures off a tripod, with eye glued to the finder, but very few people do that, as it will considerably increase the risk of camera movements and vibration...

Size, weight, uncoupling of finder brightness from lens and filter choice, and short rear element to film depth are much more relevant reasons to choose a rangefinder.

Sevo
 
It's not a prolbem. I just find it annoying. But only when shooting people or moving subjects.
It indeed is too late to change anything when you press the button, but at least I can see what is on the picture when I take it. With A SLR it is always a guess.

Cheers,
Michiel Fokkema
 
sevo said:
And you can actually see that anything of the above happened during the 1/30s or less exposure time slice within your 1/4s finger press action?
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You're thinking backwards. The blink doesn't last 1/30 second. The blackout needs only to capture the first 1/30 second of the blink. If the subject is still blinking when the mirror comes back down, you won't know when the blink started.

Also, it's more than 1/30 second, even with a 1/30 second exposure. A fastresponding manual SLR also has 1/30 second before the shutter fires and another 1/30 as the mirror comes down: 3/30 or 1/10 second. Automation can slow this still more.

A surprising amount can happen in the 1/10 second (or more) where you can't see what's going on. If you've never been caught by blinking subjects, you're lucky.

Usually, it's true, it doesn't matter. But sometimes it does. I also suspect that one reason people can hold RFs steadier than SLRs is continuous viewing. I don't know why this should be so, but it seems to me to be so from personal observation. Sometimes I even put accessory finders on SLRs for this reason.

Tashi delek,

R.
 
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I am always caught by blinking subjects, and even more so by subjects tensioned in apprehension of the shot - even on rangefinders, slightly more so on plain old SLRs, significantly more so on motor/AF/digital SLRs, and most of all on AF compacts. But that is due to the relative proportion of subject-perceivable camera noise and action in advance of the shot. I can't really claim that the SLR blackout hides it from my perception - people may manage to freeze into a grimace within 1/10s, but it takes much longer for them to relax again. But the lack of a leading mirror slap is another advantage of rangefinders indeed.

Sevo
 
Never considered it a problem. The blackout is just too short to miss anything significant. Besides, with an RF you can see the blink, but I bet no-one will be able to tell if it was at the exact moment of exposure.

However, RF's don't have mirror slap and have several milliseconds less shutter lag. That I do notice and appreciate. My M2 gives me that 'sniper feeling'. My FM is so loud I'd would attract return fire :D
 
For me it's more annoying than hindering, but it depends on how fast that blackout is. My old D300 was just fantastic compared to my old Pentax dslr. Regarding blinking and the like, I find I'm usually aware of whether the subject blinked or not when using a dslr (unless he/she is a chronic photo-blinker like my wife)...
 
telenous said:
It's true that by the time you press the shutter you have finished composing. However the mirror blackout eliminates or decreases significantly, at least theoretically, the flow of information you may have on the actual exposure. You will not know, for example, if someone has blinked, moved, smiled or not smiled, or whether your flash has fired, etc., and whether you will need to make another exposure.

The remedy to mirror blackout is the brute force solution: machine gun and bracket everything so that you get the exposure you want.
Click to expand...

let's say you have a 1/125 speed

your mirror will go up and down, in about 1/30 of a second

your eyes catch 1 picture every 1/25 of second





.........................
 
When I'm shooting for money I do a lot of fill and bounce flash at very low power. I want to SEE that happening. As others have said, the complete cycle is a LOT longer than just the exposure time. A few weeks ago a friend asked me to shoot a few color pix of her and some friends with her fancy DSLR. "Everything is set. Just push the button" she instructed. First it takes its sweet time focusing, then it makes a weak little flash, finally actually taking the picture. There's no way that you could capture the moment with that camera. There was damned near enough time to go out for smoke before the shutter fired. Once you get used to a manual film rangefinder or TLR I don't know how you could put up with the delay.

Of course the modern way to find out if you just might have captured the moment is by chimping, and then everybody wants to see! Maybe Canon or Nikon will come out with a big flat screen TV linked via radio to the camera? Then everybody can get to chimp together!
 
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