herbkell@shaw.c
Peter Kelly
Actually this may make for an interesting poll. My question is simply this - If the Leica M8 solution is as we expect ie filters to solve the IR purple issue and a sensor board replacement to solve the banding green blob problem - will you
1} Return you M8 or cancel your order ..or
1) Accept the solution and move on.... or
3) Are you undecided?
I am in the undecided camp.
My main use for the camera will be street shooting and I can't figure out without personally seeing an IR filter how intrusive they will be for this type of work. I strongly resent being a guinea pig for Leica (who released a camera they must have known had issues)and this resentment has clouded my thinking. I had expected that over the last few days I would come to a clear decsion on this but I haven't.
I have not shot much with my M8 (less than 50 images) due mainly to the fact that I have been busy with other things and I am aprehensive about using a $5K camera that I may well have to return. I would hate a nick or scratch to be a factor in the decision.
I would be interested in other M8 owners or prospective owners views.
1} Return you M8 or cancel your order ..or
1) Accept the solution and move on.... or
3) Are you undecided?
I am in the undecided camp.
My main use for the camera will be street shooting and I can't figure out without personally seeing an IR filter how intrusive they will be for this type of work. I strongly resent being a guinea pig for Leica (who released a camera they must have known had issues)and this resentment has clouded my thinking. I had expected that over the last few days I would come to a clear decsion on this but I haven't.
I have not shot much with my M8 (less than 50 images) due mainly to the fact that I have been busy with other things and I am aprehensive about using a $5K camera that I may well have to return. I would hate a nick or scratch to be a factor in the decision.
I would be interested in other M8 owners or prospective owners views.
Since I use a UV filter on all my lenses already, I dont have an issue with replacing it with an IR filter. So, yes. It will be good enough for me.
Sailor Ted
Well-known
Good enough for me! I can't wait to see prints from this camera. I’m beginning to suspect Leica has finally developed a digital tool artists have been waiting for.
Ronald M
Veteran
I has to be good enough. The design is optimised,
Am I into digital? No except for some fast family pics.
Am I into digital? No except for some fast family pics.
butter71
Member
Jorge Torralba said:
i just wish i could find some...
the local dealers i've called don't have anything smaller than 77mm. the only size i need is 46mm.
until then i'll probably just shoot black and white.
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
I love the camera.
Don't really like the idea of having to get filters. But I like even less the idea of sending back my camera.
Perhaps one day there will be a better digital RF. But I am going to enjoy this one for now.
Don't really like the idea of having to get filters. But I like even less the idea of sending back my camera.
Perhaps one day there will be a better digital RF. But I am going to enjoy this one for now.
AusDLK
Famous Photographer
The M8 is history. Mine already returned. BTW, the IR problem was a non-issue for me.
J. Borger
Well-known
Yes .. and i will not use them because i shoot B&W!
For the occasional colorpicture an adjusted C1 profile like the one from Jamie Roberts is good enough for me.
"Real color" never interested me anyway ....... pleasing color is what i am after when i am not working in B&W!
For the occasional colorpicture an adjusted C1 profile like the one from Jamie Roberts is good enough for me.
"Real color" never interested me anyway ....... pleasing color is what i am after when i am not working in B&W!
Grober
Well-known
NO.
The more I use the M8 in different colors of light I realize that the WB, set to auto OR manual, is untrustworthy.
I'm shooting a wedding this Saturday as a secondary photog and will now sell them on the idea of B&W or be forced to use my film system.
I'm still rather steamed at how much this camera was anticipated, trumpeted and heralded but how badly Leica executed the rollout. I sold my M7 and a few lenses to be able to afford the M8: now what am I left with?
-g
The more I use the M8 in different colors of light I realize that the WB, set to auto OR manual, is untrustworthy.
I'm shooting a wedding this Saturday as a secondary photog and will now sell them on the idea of B&W or be forced to use my film system.
I'm still rather steamed at how much this camera was anticipated, trumpeted and heralded but how badly Leica executed the rollout. I sold my M7 and a few lenses to be able to afford the M8: now what am I left with?
-g
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
tbarker13 said:
You summed up my feelings exactly.
Sailor Ted said:
As did you.
I won't send back my camera. I'm too happy using it. Filters will be fine, now that I understand the rationale behind them. I'm glad I did not post my first knee-jerk reaction, before I thought the thing through
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rxmd
May contain traces of nut
Hi,
just as a matter of interest: can't you shoot RAW with manual WB and do test shots of a color chart in the various surroundings at your wedding? That way you can get a reference for doing the WB half-automatically in postprocessing, with somewhat minimised hassle.
Philipp
Grober said:
just as a matter of interest: can't you shoot RAW with manual WB and do test shots of a color chart in the various surroundings at your wedding? That way you can get a reference for doing the WB half-automatically in postprocessing, with somewhat minimised hassle.
Philipp
MarkM6
Established
I have learned a valuable lesson on filters once. The flare and ghosting ruined a trip worth of pictures. I am afraid of filters.
So, no; the filter solution is *not* acceptable for me.
So, no; the filter solution is *not* acceptable for me.
kbg32
neo-romanticist
Mark, many of these reflections can be easily taken care of in Photoshop, if you're adept enough. You should be able to salvage quite a lot of imagery.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Indeed, that is a five-minute job in postprocessing. And I've been told IR filters are far less flare-prone than that.
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Ben Z
Veteran
So much fuss is being made about the magenta thing that people have stopped talking about the banding and blobbing which actually came to attention before the IR problem. That's what made me take my finger off the trigger in terms of putting in an order for an M8. I am more concerned to see if and when those issues are completely solved. I know Leica says they will do it with a hardware change, so it will be a good while before anyone will have their hands on a "fixed" M8 (and by anyone I mean a regular guy like ones who found these issues, not the website reviewers who didn't, or who kept mum. Their credibility will take a while before I trust them again, sorry.) When those issues are definitely fixed, then I will broach the IR-filter issue.
But as of now, putting aside the other problems, my problem with the IR filter thing is threefold.
1. I always have a UV filter on all my lenses and I've never, ever seen any lost of contrast or flare or anything as a result. But, I use the multicoated B+W UV filters and they are a lot less reflective than the Leica and other single coateds. I have yet to see whether the IR filters are multicoated, it appears they are not, so that worries me. The single-coated Leica and B+W filters do flare and ghost.
2. I have plenty of UV filters. The IR filters would be a huge added expense. Getting one on the 15mm Heliar will be a pain.
3. The coding thing. Even if only the wider lenses need it, my 12mm (now moving up to 15mm), 15mm (moving up to 21mm) and 21mm (moving up to 28mm) are all Voitlander lenses and can't be coded. However I have done some experimentation using Panorama Tools on a file with "cyan fringing" and it's really simple to get rid of it, so heck with coding. Still, it's an extra step.
So for me whether I will eventually get an M8 will depend more on how Leica solves the other problems than this one.
But the main point for me is this: Leica says they left off a stronger IR filter on the sensor because it gives better quality. But from what I've learned, the IR causes problems mostly with black fabric, but not just with black fabric. So unless you're really good at judging which shots contain something that will cause the IR casting, you're really going to end up with the filters on pretty much all the time. So I wonder in that case if image quality won't end up the same or even worse as if the sensor had had a proper IR filter.
But as of now, putting aside the other problems, my problem with the IR filter thing is threefold.
1. I always have a UV filter on all my lenses and I've never, ever seen any lost of contrast or flare or anything as a result. But, I use the multicoated B+W UV filters and they are a lot less reflective than the Leica and other single coateds. I have yet to see whether the IR filters are multicoated, it appears they are not, so that worries me. The single-coated Leica and B+W filters do flare and ghost.
2. I have plenty of UV filters. The IR filters would be a huge added expense. Getting one on the 15mm Heliar will be a pain.
3. The coding thing. Even if only the wider lenses need it, my 12mm (now moving up to 15mm), 15mm (moving up to 21mm) and 21mm (moving up to 28mm) are all Voitlander lenses and can't be coded. However I have done some experimentation using Panorama Tools on a file with "cyan fringing" and it's really simple to get rid of it, so heck with coding. Still, it's an extra step.
So for me whether I will eventually get an M8 will depend more on how Leica solves the other problems than this one.
But the main point for me is this: Leica says they left off a stronger IR filter on the sensor because it gives better quality. But from what I've learned, the IR causes problems mostly with black fabric, but not just with black fabric. So unless you're really good at judging which shots contain something that will cause the IR casting, you're really going to end up with the filters on pretty much all the time. So I wonder in that case if image quality won't end up the same or even worse as if the sensor had had a proper IR filter.
roblumba
Established
WB Non Issue
WB Non Issue
If you go into digital, especially as a wedding photographer, you shuould invest in the following as a minimum
1. Monitor that can be calibrated, Lacie makes a range with adjustable RGB guns.
2. Monitor Calibration like a Spyder.
3. Wacom Tablet
4. Photoshop or CS1 / CS1LE
5. Greytag Color swatch and greycard.
I really think this is the minimum. If you want to do your own printing, you have to expand the list to color calibrate for printing. But this minimum is needed for serious digital photography. Otherwise, White Balance will be an issue no matter what camera you choose.
I have a 1D MarkII and although it has very good auto white balance, I sometimes need to adjust in photoshop. However, with a properly calibrated monitor, I can adjust white balance by sight and expect the prints to match.
Occassionally, I bring a mini greytag mcbeth color swatch and shoot it on location, but for most situations, manual visual adjustment is adequate. Sometime perfect white balance is not what you want, so eyeing it can be a good way to get the look you want.
With the M8, perhaps you will need to do more manual adjustments because the autowb is not as good. But I think it is easy in CS1 or photoshop because you can apply a batch WB setting to a series of photos taken under similar lighting with very little effort. I don't think WB is a good reason to disqualify an M8 if it excells in other chategories such as image quality, leica M body, Leica glass, etc.
WB Non Issue
If you go into digital, especially as a wedding photographer, you shuould invest in the following as a minimum
1. Monitor that can be calibrated, Lacie makes a range with adjustable RGB guns.
2. Monitor Calibration like a Spyder.
3. Wacom Tablet
4. Photoshop or CS1 / CS1LE
5. Greytag Color swatch and greycard.
I really think this is the minimum. If you want to do your own printing, you have to expand the list to color calibrate for printing. But this minimum is needed for serious digital photography. Otherwise, White Balance will be an issue no matter what camera you choose.
I have a 1D MarkII and although it has very good auto white balance, I sometimes need to adjust in photoshop. However, with a properly calibrated monitor, I can adjust white balance by sight and expect the prints to match.
Occassionally, I bring a mini greytag mcbeth color swatch and shoot it on location, but for most situations, manual visual adjustment is adequate. Sometime perfect white balance is not what you want, so eyeing it can be a good way to get the look you want.
With the M8, perhaps you will need to do more manual adjustments because the autowb is not as good. But I think it is easy in CS1 or photoshop because you can apply a batch WB setting to a series of photos taken under similar lighting with very little effort. I don't think WB is a good reason to disqualify an M8 if it excells in other chategories such as image quality, leica M body, Leica glass, etc.
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jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
No- in this case the best place for the filter is in front of the lens - not the sensor. Well- next to the diaphragm would be the best of all.
V
varjag
Guest
Once again, magenta cast is not a WB issue, and can't be automated away.roblumba said:
Toby
On the alert
If colour balance is a problem, it's pretty easy to adjust with the colour picker in ACR, failing that I've often found that it's easier to adjust colours by looking at the numerical values in the info window any cast will show up in whites or black as a higher or lower number in one colour channel. However easy it may or may not be to adjust however, the point is such an expensive camera shouldn't have these kind of issues. If better AWB can be found in bargain basement DSLR's it just goes to show that leica desperately need a partner for the electronic elements of digital camera design ( I don't really understand why panasonic wasn't more heavily involved)
gogopix
Graf
Given the M8 sensor characteristics, including sharpness, I would rather a filter on the lens
Except for cost and IQ, and it seems general IQ IMPROVES with a good filter, that leaves cost. If Leica defrays a bit I would say pretty good compromise,
The sensor board fix for the band/smeaering is essential however,
certainly keeping, and so far pretty pleased.
regards
Victor
Except for cost and IQ, and it seems general IQ IMPROVES with a good filter, that leaves cost. If Leica defrays a bit I would say pretty good compromise,
The sensor board fix for the band/smeaering is essential however,
certainly keeping, and so far pretty pleased.
regards
Victor