Avotius
Some guy
I am pretty much on board for the M8, even though the many problems I have heard about it, I think they are things I can get over, just like I did with my ricoh grd. What does bother me is....well.....is 10mp enough?
For most of you out there it is but I wonder how many of you do magazine spreads and large (over 30 inch) prints. My canon 20D so far has been ok...kind of, and at 30 inches prints are ok'ish. Two megapixles is not a lot when it comes to a large print. Im sure I could make it work but its always in the back of my mind. Mags and stock and all the others have been raising their bars pretty high, for the most part a 35mm negative doesn't cut it anymore and even medium format has some very strict guidelines, for instance one magazine here wont take 645 shots and only drum scans.
Just curious, anyone here work pro with the m8? I mean really work pro, not occasionally sticking photos up on stock photo sites or something like that. People who know my photos here will know what kind of quality I expect from prints and as much as I would like to shoot film, it really isnt working out much anymore as the last shop in town that has pro film just closed last week. I really want to keep working with rangefinders and am hoping there is a way out from me buying a 1ds mk2 or 3 and hiring a on call chiropractor.
Btw, my photo teacher told me to go get a 8x10 camera if I was so worried about image quality, but he wasnt being snide about it, he thinks I should be shooting higher quality imagery.
For most of you out there it is but I wonder how many of you do magazine spreads and large (over 30 inch) prints. My canon 20D so far has been ok...kind of, and at 30 inches prints are ok'ish. Two megapixles is not a lot when it comes to a large print. Im sure I could make it work but its always in the back of my mind. Mags and stock and all the others have been raising their bars pretty high, for the most part a 35mm negative doesn't cut it anymore and even medium format has some very strict guidelines, for instance one magazine here wont take 645 shots and only drum scans.
Just curious, anyone here work pro with the m8? I mean really work pro, not occasionally sticking photos up on stock photo sites or something like that. People who know my photos here will know what kind of quality I expect from prints and as much as I would like to shoot film, it really isnt working out much anymore as the last shop in town that has pro film just closed last week. I really want to keep working with rangefinders and am hoping there is a way out from me buying a 1ds mk2 or 3 and hiring a on call chiropractor.
Btw, my photo teacher told me to go get a 8x10 camera if I was so worried about image quality, but he wasnt being snide about it, he thinks I should be shooting higher quality imagery.
V
varjag
Guest
Well, some journalists (John Vink, Bruno Stevens) do use M8 professionally. 10MP, given that there's no low-pass filter in M8 built in, should be OK for a mag spread.
KM-25
Well-known
I did an assignment with mine yesterday for Newsweek, the images look great.
But, I always have to carry a second system backup, my Canon 5D as it would be for now. As good as the M8 is, there is no way I would ever try to do everything with it. The 5D still out does in terms of resolution and image quality so I use it a lot more for commercial work and stock.
As good as the M8 is and as fun as it is to use, f I were you and had Canon gear like you do, I would save my money and get a 5D and a few great primes right now since the prices are very low and the camera is fantastic.
The M8 is not that much quieter than a 5D and if you were to put a 28/1.8 on the 5D, it is not that much bigger either for street work.
Seriously though, the 5D is much better than your current 20D, you would perhaps miss the high iso ability that the 5D and even the 20D has over the M8 as well.
Also, consider that if you buy an M8, it should be a brand new one or used from a seller who is really willing to give you a trial . Also consider that if you decide the M8 is not for you, unlike other cameras, you will lose over $1,000 instantly on re-sale over the new price.
I am not knocking the M8, I love mine, but there is simply no way I would use only an M8 to get my work done.
But, I always have to carry a second system backup, my Canon 5D as it would be for now. As good as the M8 is, there is no way I would ever try to do everything with it. The 5D still out does in terms of resolution and image quality so I use it a lot more for commercial work and stock.
As good as the M8 is and as fun as it is to use, f I were you and had Canon gear like you do, I would save my money and get a 5D and a few great primes right now since the prices are very low and the camera is fantastic.
The M8 is not that much quieter than a 5D and if you were to put a 28/1.8 on the 5D, it is not that much bigger either for street work.
Seriously though, the 5D is much better than your current 20D, you would perhaps miss the high iso ability that the 5D and even the 20D has over the M8 as well.
Also, consider that if you buy an M8, it should be a brand new one or used from a seller who is really willing to give you a trial . Also consider that if you decide the M8 is not for you, unlike other cameras, you will lose over $1,000 instantly on re-sale over the new price.
I am not knocking the M8, I love mine, but there is simply no way I would use only an M8 to get my work done.
victoriapio
Well-known
I can't speak for 30" prints because I do not print that large.
But I can speak about published work. I typically shoot with a 1dsmk2 and double-truk magazine spreads are no problem. I did a feature layout for Texas Highways - a travel photography magazine - and submitted a picture taken with a Pentax Optio that was a 4mg pixel image. It printed up great! I do the photography for Victoria, Texas' annual report and many of them were taken with the Epson rd1s (the others with the 1dsmk2). They look great. Certainly images from an M8 would work on a double truk spread.
So my recommendation is to stick with a camera that brings out the best in your photography, be it DSLR or DRF. The higher the publication quality of the magazine, the better all images look regardless of their source.
O.C.
But I can speak about published work. I typically shoot with a 1dsmk2 and double-truk magazine spreads are no problem. I did a feature layout for Texas Highways - a travel photography magazine - and submitted a picture taken with a Pentax Optio that was a 4mg pixel image. It printed up great! I do the photography for Victoria, Texas' annual report and many of them were taken with the Epson rd1s (the others with the 1dsmk2). They look great. Certainly images from an M8 would work on a double truk spread.
So my recommendation is to stick with a camera that brings out the best in your photography, be it DSLR or DRF. The higher the publication quality of the magazine, the better all images look regardless of their source.
O.C.
Avotius
Some guy
KM-25 said:
I figured that in the far off future I would have a 5d mk2 to replace my very much falling apart 20D. I would never just use a single camera to do anything, for instance I use my rangefinder stuff for normal focal lengths and the digital stuff for the very wide or tele. My gf just got a 5D and I use it a lot (probably more then she does actually
) and so I do greatly appreciate that camera and wouldnt mind having my own later on down the line.I gf just did a 16 page double spread for a magazine with photos taken with the 5D and the canon fisheye and 17-40. They came out really well despite some very substandard printing. I have a lot of confidence that the camera is great indeed. a 12 mp file makes it in the door with some publications here and some it doesnt. Some places want a minimum of 16mp now for their very well printed magazines, difficult to say the least.
ps. noise never bothered me, I use my ricoh grd at 1600 all the time lately and the printed results look quite well actually...in black and white at least, I havnt tried color yet.
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pgmj
Member
About big prints from the M8 (I recommend reading the whole thread):
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/9022-30-x-40-inch-m8-prints.html
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/9022-30-x-40-inch-m8-prints.html
CameronDavidson
Newbie
I shoot with two M8's and a Canon kit. I recently completed two annual reports that were a mix of Canon and Leica files. I am currently in the middle of a corporate portrait project that i am shooting with the M8's. Up to double trucks, the files are perfect.
The key is is to process the file in ACR 4.2 or Capture One - turn off the sharpening and noise reduction. Sharpen the file (if needed) later in the process.
My clients are happy with the files. I see the difference between the Canon 12 bit files (1Ds II) and the 14 bit M8 files.
The key is is to process the file in ACR 4.2 or Capture One - turn off the sharpening and noise reduction. Sharpen the file (if needed) later in the process.
My clients are happy with the files. I see the difference between the Canon 12 bit files (1Ds II) and the 14 bit M8 files.
Avotius
Some guy
CameronDavidson said:
I just did a bunch of double truck spreads with my canon 20d for a rather odd magazine format that had the image come out to 5400x3000 with a lot of cropping. I was pretty surprised by the ISO 3200 results that I got out of it as I had never tried to push one of my digital files so far with printing. Indeed the key really is that sharpening should be the last thing you do before saving a tiff. I do my processing in ACR and never did get into capture one. I hear that lightroom is supposed to be pretty decent for the raw work flow but I have yet been able to get my hands on a copy over here in chongqingville where they no longer have real software. Any comments on using the m8 with lightroom or the such?
Joe Mondello
Resu Deretsiger
Hi Colin,
Depends entirely on the *kind* of pro work I think.
I have no clue about 30" prints, but I can certainly vouch for the fact that the M8 has better resolution than a 5D or a D200.
As for a working pro who uses the M8 check out Guy Mancuso's website and also wander over to the Leica User Group.
Depends entirely on the *kind* of pro work I think.
I have no clue about 30" prints, but I can certainly vouch for the fact that the M8 has better resolution than a 5D or a D200.
As for a working pro who uses the M8 check out Guy Mancuso's website and also wander over to the Leica User Group.
etrigan63
Rangefinder Padawan
A new M8 (or use one with all the docs and discs) includes CaptureOne LE 3.7.x which is eligible for upgrade to 4.0 if it hasn't been activated yet. Lightroom does a decent job with M8 files but I personally do not like it for high ISO or B&W work.Avotius said:
[Those of you who have already heard my Bibble Pro speech can leave now.]
I use Bibble Pro for RAW conversion. The program includes Noise Ninja for noise reduction and has a plugin structure that includes some excellent B&W conversions based on film/reagent/paper emulation.
Here is a ISO 640 shot developed with BibblePro + NN and converted to look like Fujifilm 400 on Agfa Multicontrast Paper.
The frame, matte and watermark are also added via Bibble plugins.
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hofrench@mac.co
Established
I print for gallery exhibition and sale at 30" with M8 files quite often.
It is far and away more better quality than your 20d. I know, because I own one. I would also dispute what was said earlier that the 5d has better image quality.
I believe that up to 640 iso, the M8 generally produces the better file. I believe the M8 files print better, too.
This is not to knock the 5d, which I think highly of. I also agree that you wouldn't want the M8 as your only option. The 5d is more versatile, in truth, but not higher quality. Certainly not at the lower asas.
It is far and away more better quality than your 20d. I know, because I own one. I would also dispute what was said earlier that the 5d has better image quality.
I believe that up to 640 iso, the M8 generally produces the better file. I believe the M8 files print better, too.
This is not to knock the 5d, which I think highly of. I also agree that you wouldn't want the M8 as your only option. The 5d is more versatile, in truth, but not higher quality. Certainly not at the lower asas.
kinok1
Established
I'm a working pro who has adopted the m8 into my workflow. life has not been this good for a while. clients no longer have the time for film.
the nikons just dont cut it ALL the time.
for all its flaws (and there are a few) the m8 is a dream to use.
case: was in nyc last week shooting some portraits of a fairly well known singer for a large corporate client.
at the end of the shoot we were doing a soft review of the images. anytime one of the 'candids' taken with the m8 on a 50 at 1.4 came up on the screen, the publicist stopped me...
there is something about that glass...
if you can justify the cost...stop fondling the damn thing, and staring at focus charts, the m8 is a great camera.
Oh, and as far as 10megapixels being 'enough'. ive had images from a d200 resized to poster size...and the client could care less...
g
the nikons just dont cut it ALL the time.
for all its flaws (and there are a few) the m8 is a dream to use.
case: was in nyc last week shooting some portraits of a fairly well known singer for a large corporate client.
at the end of the shoot we were doing a soft review of the images. anytime one of the 'candids' taken with the m8 on a 50 at 1.4 came up on the screen, the publicist stopped me...
there is something about that glass...
if you can justify the cost...stop fondling the damn thing, and staring at focus charts, the m8 is a great camera.
Oh, and as far as 10megapixels being 'enough'. ive had images from a d200 resized to poster size...and the client could care less...
g
Toby
On the alert
If you want to compare 5d to M8 follow his link http://cyberphotographer.com/m8v5d/ That shows a pretty clear win for the 5d which is unsurprising if you forget about megapixels and consider the advantage the larger sensor gives the 5d.
etrigan63
Rangefinder Padawan
Unfortunately the author of the comparo decided on using the internal JPEG engines of both cameras "because he can't be bothered with RAW conversion". It is well known that the M8's JPEG is not that good and that the really spectacular images everyone sees are created from RAW files. If you shoot straight JPEG out of the camera, a P&S camera will out do an M8. The real magic happens with RAW files.
nksyoon
Well-known
sitemistic said:
The only one I know of is Sean Reid's subscription site.
Toby
On the alert
Okay, my general take as a working pro is that the M8 or any rangefinder is just not flexible enough as a main camera system. I shoot portraits mainly but living in a small town sometimes I just have to take whatevever comes along. I run a 5d and a 20d with 17-40L and 70-200L zoom as well as 50 1.4 and 85 1.8 primes that means I've got effective focal lengths from 17 - 300 mm, decent low light capabilty as well as a good TTL system. Unless you are lucky enough to be the type of pro who can pick and choose what he does a rangefinder system does not give you access to the long focal lengths that are essential for a jobbing pro. I would classify the M8 as an extra to a DSLR set up. In the first instance you just need equipment that covers the most bases.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Hell, clients never had the time for film even when film was the only option!kinok1 said:
(My experience in advertising goes back 30+ years)
"Of course I want it yesterday. If I wanted it today, I'd ask for it tomorrow."
(Then it sits on their desk for 48 hours)
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Toby,Toby said:
Depends on what sort of pro work. In advertising I seldom needed more than 150 on Hasselblad, 210 on 4x5 or 360 on 8x10. A 135 on an M8 is 180 in 35mm terms, 250 on Hasselblad, 450+ on 4x5. Or about 1000mm on 8x10...
But of course in those days, few clients would accept 35mm for advertising.
[Edit] I'd add that nowadays, pro photography pays so badly that it ain't luck -- it's a refusal to do anything else. I'm a qualified teacher and an experienced and much published photographer, and I'd advise anyone to avoid either as a career in the 21st century.
Cheers,
R.
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Toby
On the alert
Roger Hicks said:
Roger
I seldom use longer than an 85mm with my 5d or a 165mm with my Pentax 67
but I do have the option of a 70-200 in my bag. It's not so much that you need it it's like insurance , for £450 you can put a canon 70-200 F4L in your camera bag if you buy a 5d and have some extra bases covered, with a decent lens. What does £450 get you in leica land?
etrigan63
Rangefinder Padawan
Some rather spectacular CV or Zeiss glass. My entire set of lenses are CV and cost less than $1000 all together. Unless I tell someone it's CV glass, no one can tell it's not Leica glass from the photos.