axiom
Non-Registered User
So you know all but 2 ZM lenses are made in Japan, the 2 that are made in Germany are due to whatever technical reasons that the factory in Japan is incapable of.
Say IF you pay double the cost, you can have the made in Germany version of the thing (be it ZM lenses or Zeiss Ikon or viewfinders), would you do so?
Say IF you pay double the cost, you can have the made in Germany version of the thing (be it ZM lenses or Zeiss Ikon or viewfinders), would you do so?
Brian Puccio
Well-known
Depends. Am I paying workers a more livable wage? Am I paying to line the pockets of management more? Am I getting something with a longer warranty? Or am I just going blindly off the assumption that something made in Germany is inherently a higher quality good than the same something made in Japan?
BillBingham2
Registered User
For me it's somewhere in between. While I hate to draw another parallel to guns it's kind of like a Mosin Nagant M91 30. A fine rifle, simple to build and a lot of them still in use out there (here in the US too). The general quality is OK to good, some are better than others. A few great ones (ok as millions seem to have been made perhaps a lot is a better description) were selected for upgrading to give to snipers (scopes and different bolts). These shoot really really well producing tight patterns every time in the right hands. Now take one of each and give it to an artisan (like Don G or Sherry for us) and they can take it to the next level.
There are many different approaches for quality control, at least IMHO, in the end it's allowing an expert to tweak that will make it as close to perfect as you can get. Quality costs money for people trained, measurements being made at every step and good parts well within spec. You might get one or two great ones just by the odds, but QC is about bettering your odds. I do not think that German made is that much better than Japanese two warrant double the price.
B2 (;->
There are many different approaches for quality control, at least IMHO, in the end it's allowing an expert to tweak that will make it as close to perfect as you can get. Quality costs money for people trained, measurements being made at every step and good parts well within spec. You might get one or two great ones just by the odds, but QC is about bettering your odds. I do not think that German made is that much better than Japanese two warrant double the price.
B2 (;->
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
A lot of corners are cut to reduce the price of Cosina-made lenses. Making them at Zeiss Germany would likely result in them being designed better to justify the high price. Worker's wages aren't much different, I imagine. Japanese workers are well paid. Another Japanese company could build them to a higher quality standard too if we were willing to pay for it. Look at the Kyocera-made Zeiss lenses for the Contax SLRs.
kdemas
Enjoy Life.
Kyocera made some high quality zooms for the Leica R series as well.
I do have to say I have a number of ZM lenses, and love them, but I'd be willing to pay a marginal premium to eliminate issues like the wobble.
zane0777
Established
Quality costs money for people trained, measurements being made at every step and good parts well within spec.
There is a training cost, yes. But that small investment pays off many times over in lower production costs, less scrap, less rework (if any), and fewer warranty issues.
This comes up a lot in forums. A modern quality system *reduces* inspections, measurements, and rework, it doesn't add them. It is perhaps counter-intuitive, but Quality programs *save* money, they don't cost money.
If a product receives multiple hand inspections and "quality checks" during manufacture, that's a sure sign of a low quality (and costly) system, not a high quality (and efficient) system.
There is a training cost, yes. But that small investment pays off many times over in lower production costs, less scrap, less rework (if any), and fewer warranty issues.
This comes up a lot in forums. A modern quality system *reduces* inspections, measurements, and rework, it doesn't add them. It is perhaps counter-intuitive, but Quality programs *save* money, they don't cost money.
If a product receives multiple hand inspections and "quality checks" during manufacture, that's a sure sign of a low quality (and costly) system, not a high quality (and efficient) system.
No chance in H E double hockey sticks.
sper
Well-known
Every cosina made CV lens I own feels of remarkably good quality. They are more than capable of producing Zeiss lenses at any quality level. I'd remind you that even Leica lenses freeze up, develop problems, whatever.
And I've handled the German made 15mm, it's no different in quality. It's flippin huge, but more or less the same quality of the Cosina stuff.
I think, wobble aside, I'd rather see the ZM line in the hands of more people at a lower price than reserved only for the wealthy enthusiast like the Leica stuff.
My friend's 50 developed the wobble, was cheap and fast to fix. No biggie.
And I've handled the German made 15mm, it's no different in quality. It's flippin huge, but more or less the same quality of the Cosina stuff.
I think, wobble aside, I'd rather see the ZM line in the hands of more people at a lower price than reserved only for the wealthy enthusiast like the Leica stuff.
My friend's 50 developed the wobble, was cheap and fast to fix. No biggie.
axiom
Non-Registered User
I should have added Option 3: Made in China version for disposable costs.
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
I don't think that in this day and age any country has a monoply on being able produce high quality goods. There is no magic in where an item is made. In some cases I believe that a lot of manufacturers take advantage of the popular perception by some that it is better if made in X and not Y. There are a lot of other reasons that may cause a big price differnce but are not related to the ability to produce a product of like quality in X or Y country. So no, i don't think paying twice as much automatically gets you twice the quality.
Bob
Bob
E.M
Well-known
I think Japan is capable of making high quality products , all my Nikons were made in Japan , never had a prblem with any of them since 1972 .
http://www.etiennemichiels.com
http://www.etiennemichiels.com
Krosya
Konicaze
Dont know about Zeiss in particular, but IMO things that are made in Japan are much better than similar things made in Germany (cameras, cars, electronics in general). So, I wouldnt pay more for a German version of Zeiss. Yet I do thing that self-respecting Japanese company such as Cosina should have a better quality control on all their products - CV and Zeiss included. It seems that some Japanese companies that were benchmark of quality (Toyota, etc) started to slip and make more and more inferior products. Too bad. But the good thing is - Korean companies are starting to earn top marks (Samsung, LG, etc). So maybe we will see some Korean made M-mount lenses that will be even better than Cosina?
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
Maybe if I were at all unhappy with my Zeiss Planar. But I'm not. the lens does everything I need it to do. Why pay more for something I don't need?
I don't want to get into an international war here, but I don't really agree with what seems to be the underlying notion: that the Germans are better than the Japanese at making things.
Zeiss lenses are what they are meant to be - an excellent, lower-cost, option for rangefinders. Double the cost, and that aspect is weakened considerably.
I don't want to get into an international war here, but I don't really agree with what seems to be the underlying notion: that the Germans are better than the Japanese at making things.
Zeiss lenses are what they are meant to be - an excellent, lower-cost, option for rangefinders. Double the cost, and that aspect is weakened considerably.
Does anyone have an identical lens, one made in Japan and the other made in Germany to compare? How about one made in Canada and one made in Germany? Or Singapore and Germany? Or the US and Germany? Or Timbuktu and Germany?
The best lenses that I own were made in the US. Amazing optics. The metal in the optics mount is formulated to correct the focal length over temperature range, the coefficient of expansion of the metal matched the optics. It was used in an optical computer in the 80s. Very few places could make a lens like this. And the Vivitar 600/8 Solid-Cat is pretty good too. It cost about $39,800 less than the lens for the computer. Still high-quality.
I suspect most lenses are made to target a specific price range. Price-point has more to do with the design of a lens rather than the limits of building a lens.
The best lenses that I own were made in the US. Amazing optics. The metal in the optics mount is formulated to correct the focal length over temperature range, the coefficient of expansion of the metal matched the optics. It was used in an optical computer in the 80s. Very few places could make a lens like this. And the Vivitar 600/8 Solid-Cat is pretty good too. It cost about $39,800 less than the lens for the computer. Still high-quality.
I suspect most lenses are made to target a specific price range. Price-point has more to do with the design of a lens rather than the limits of building a lens.
JFH
Established
I think that what we may be looking at here with the "premium" prices of German products is an economy that's a bit "farther along" than the Japanese... One that's "advanced" from a work ethic and a "quality ethic" to shortened work hours, longer vacations, exhorbitant "benefits" and a short term rather than a long term view of things.
Sort of reminds me of the US debacle. In a previous importing "exercise" from Germany, I was informed that "The German worker cannot be required to lift more than 20 kilograms," which frustrated efforts to consolidate packages and save a few dollars. I finally dropped my importing business, largely due to the fact that "German quality" just wasn't up to expectations and rectifying quality problems became too expensive. Yeah, don't talk to me about Germany.
And yes, I find my (Japanese) Zeiss and Cosina products to be just excellent, thank you....
Sort of reminds me of the US debacle. In a previous importing "exercise" from Germany, I was informed that "The German worker cannot be required to lift more than 20 kilograms," which frustrated efforts to consolidate packages and save a few dollars. I finally dropped my importing business, largely due to the fact that "German quality" just wasn't up to expectations and rectifying quality problems became too expensive. Yeah, don't talk to me about Germany.
And yes, I find my (Japanese) Zeiss and Cosina products to be just excellent, thank you....
BillBingham2
Registered User
It's not a question of quality programs it's about your targets for quality and number and type of tests you perform. German workers are not any smarter than Japanese workers or American workers. It's a matter of the number and types of tests, the range of acceptable quality, the requirements you are designing for and the materials. Those old Perk & Elmar solid CAT lenses were initially designed for US government use across a wide range of conditions. They were brought to the commercial market so the manufacturer could leverage the tools and supplies they did for the first government runs. The 450, 600 and 800 are wonderful lenses, have lusted for years after them but never pulled the trigger to acquire when I had the chance.
B2 (;->
B2 (;->
sepiareverb
genius and moron
Those lenses are what they are- different than any of the Japanese ones. Not a real even comparison- the 15 has a lot of appeal to me, but I've been happy enough with my G16 so haven't made the move to the 15. Some DOF control would be nice though.
I've not handled any of the German versions, but found the ZM lenses I owned fine as far as build quality.
I've not handled any of the German versions, but found the ZM lenses I owned fine as far as build quality.
FrozenInTime
Well-known
D'ont care if the lenses come from Germany,Canada or Japan.
However I do hope that there is quality feedback done :
The wobble pole showed the first lens designs were most likely to have issues. http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97703
I don't know if that's because they are the most abundant or popular.
But they should be redesigning the lenses or assembly processes to fix the wobble. I've been deliberately avoiding lenses in the first group.
2,8/15 November 2004
2,8/21 November 2004
2,8/25 November 2004
2,8/28 November 2004
2/35 November 2004
2/50 November 2004
2/85 November 2004
1,5/50 June 2006
4,5/21 June 2007
4/18 August 2007
2,8/35 April 2008
4/85 March 2009
However I do hope that there is quality feedback done :
The wobble pole showed the first lens designs were most likely to have issues. http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97703
I don't know if that's because they are the most abundant or popular.
But they should be redesigning the lenses or assembly processes to fix the wobble. I've been deliberately avoiding lenses in the first group.
2,8/15 November 2004
2,8/21 November 2004
2,8/25 November 2004
2,8/28 November 2004
2/35 November 2004
2/50 November 2004
2/85 November 2004
1,5/50 June 2006
4,5/21 June 2007
4/18 August 2007
2,8/35 April 2008
4/85 March 2009
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user237428934
User deletion pending
After the specification, building a lens is a rather simple process and achieving quality is a matter of education and the amount of quality assurance you are willing to pay for. Every single lens is the same so it's a mass production process. Mass production is not something special for Germany I think. Our industry is very good in high quality single built machines or mass customized goods like cars. When Japanes automobile firms started to build more models and have more options, quality dropped dramatically (see Toyota problems).
No, I wouldn't pay more for a lens built in Germany.
No, I wouldn't pay more for a lens built in Germany.
zane0777
Established
...achieving quality is a matter of education and the amount of quality assurance you are willing to pay for.
Again, employing modern QC practices to achieve high, consistent quality in a product does not cost money -- it saves money. A proper QC program removes non-value-added steps like inspection and rework, and reduces scrap.
If the only difference between these German and Japanese-built lenses is cost, and that cost is attributed to more "hand inspection," you're not paying for higher quality. You're paying for production inefficiencies (waste).
Again, employing modern QC practices to achieve high, consistent quality in a product does not cost money -- it saves money. A proper QC program removes non-value-added steps like inspection and rework, and reduces scrap.
If the only difference between these German and Japanese-built lenses is cost, and that cost is attributed to more "hand inspection," you're not paying for higher quality. You're paying for production inefficiencies (waste).
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