srtiwari
Daktari
I have been trying to use an incident meter while shooting B+W with my meterless M bodies. I'm now reading Fred Picker's 'Zone VI workshop' towards improving my exposures. All references in that system seem applied to reflected metering, when attempting to place different areas of the picture in 'zones'. I imagine, then, that all incident meter readings done correctly would represent a zone V setting. I wonder if anyone could clarify this, since, as far as I can tell, if this is correct, the rest of it would make sense.
lilmsmaggie
Established
Not exactly. All meters are calibrated to read middle gray (18% gray tone), essentially Zone V, so it doesn't matter if its incident or reflected.
In essence, you decide which tones are important to you to represent in the final print. So for example, you select and meter a Zone V tone, all the other tones in the scene will have to fall into place (their appropriate zone) based on that metered measurement. However, remember that the meter whether in-camera or hand-held, is only gonna give you an approximation.
Hope that helps.
The Fred Picker is an excellent book by the way.
An incident meter measure the light falling on the subject as opposed to light being reflected off the subject. There are some that feel that measuring incident light is more accurate but unfortunately, sometimes you can get close enough to the subject to measure the light falling on it. Unless of course you have a spot meter
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srtiwari
Daktari
Not exactly. All meters are calibrated to read middle gray (18% gray tone), essentially Zone V, so it doesn't matter if its incident or reflected.
Is this different from my saying that a reading obtained by an Incident meter can be correctly assigned to zone V ?
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Subhash,
An incident meter actually reads how much light falls on the subject and gives the correct exposure to make an 18% grey card look 18% grey on slide film. Its basically a highlight biased system; it gives perfect exposure for slide film that pegs highlights to correctly render, but in high contrast situations, dark tones can be pushed down too low. With slide film, this is fine, you are mainly concerned with the highlights.
with negative film, an incident meter tends to underexpose about one stop because of the longer tonal range of print films in normal lighting, and more so in high contrast light. Phil Davis' book Beyond The Zone System explains all this and outlines a system for using an incident meter for black and white film that works very well. I personally find a spotmeter to be much simpler in actual practice with BW film. I use incident for slide film.
An incident meter actually reads how much light falls on the subject and gives the correct exposure to make an 18% grey card look 18% grey on slide film. Its basically a highlight biased system; it gives perfect exposure for slide film that pegs highlights to correctly render, but in high contrast situations, dark tones can be pushed down too low. With slide film, this is fine, you are mainly concerned with the highlights.
with negative film, an incident meter tends to underexpose about one stop because of the longer tonal range of print films in normal lighting, and more so in high contrast light. Phil Davis' book Beyond The Zone System explains all this and outlines a system for using an incident meter for black and white film that works very well. I personally find a spotmeter to be much simpler in actual practice with BW film. I use incident for slide film.
ChrisN
Striving
The beauty of the spot meter is that it allows you to take a precise reading of the reflected light level at a particular place in the scene, then place that reflected light level at a particular zone. For example, take a reading of a shadow area that you want to show detail on the negative, then "place" that in Zone 3 by closing down two stops.
If I used an incident meter reading as my exposure value, I could never know be sure where the tones in the scene would fall on the Zone scale.
If I used an incident meter reading as my exposure value, I could never know be sure where the tones in the scene would fall on the Zone scale.
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Freakscene
Obscure member
The zone system is hard to implement for roll film because you can't apply different development to different frames.
The 'best' approach to this is to carry three cameras loaded with the same film for N, N-minus and N-plus development. In practice, that's a pain.
This describes a nice, simple system:
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/a_simple_system.html
that ultimately matches what Ansel Adams said about 35mm film "expose carefully and give N-1 development".
Marty
The 'best' approach to this is to carry three cameras loaded with the same film for N, N-minus and N-plus development. In practice, that's a pain.
This describes a nice, simple system:
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/a_simple_system.html
that ultimately matches what Ansel Adams said about 35mm film "expose carefully and give N-1 development".
Marty
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
It really isn't that difficult. First of all, you'll never need N+1. Ever. I've never used it, in 20 years of shooting. If you do shoot something flat enough to need more contrast, it is easy to add contrast in printing in the darkroom or in photoshop. Reducing contrast is harder, so N-1 is very needed. I sometimes carry 2 bodies if light is changing, but most days, the light stays pretty consistent, so one body is just fine.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
First of all, meters are not calibrated to 18%. Read the ISO standard.
Second, an incident light reading is meaningless in Zone terms, as Chris N points out and as a simple thought experiment will show.
Consider a tree with gnarly roots and branches. One day, you are shooting it under a flat, overcast sky. A few days later, you shoot it under bright, hard sun. You want detail (Zone 4 in the print) in the deep cracks under the roots.
On the overcast day, these shadows may be as little as 2 stops darker than the rest of the tree. On the sunny day, they could easily be 5 stops darker.
Cheers,
R.
Second, an incident light reading is meaningless in Zone terms, as Chris N points out and as a simple thought experiment will show.
Consider a tree with gnarly roots and branches. One day, you are shooting it under a flat, overcast sky. A few days later, you shoot it under bright, hard sun. You want detail (Zone 4 in the print) in the deep cracks under the roots.
On the overcast day, these shadows may be as little as 2 stops darker than the rest of the tree. On the sunny day, they could easily be 5 stops darker.
Cheers,
R.
lilmsmaggie
Established
OK - so I stand corrected. And I agree that Chris did a better job of explaning than I did but instead of ranting on error, why don't you try exerting your energy on answering the OP question?
Besides, who really is gonna spend time reading ISO, or IEEE standards besides some numbers geek who lives and swears by tables and MTF charts.
skibeerr
Well-known
srtiwari,
what is your objective?
Placing middle gray in the scene in the middle, zone V, or learning contrast control because that is what the zone system is about. Transmitting the values in the subject matter to a previsualisation. (In normal words you see the print before your eyes) and controlling exposure and development to obtain these values in the negative. Off course this works best with sheet film or shoot an entire roll with the same dev, (buy a 6x17)
Now whatever method you use, there are plenty, the key is create a standard/protocol
in which you repeat your method with the same film, lens, camera, meter, development etc until you can reproduce results under different contrast circumstances.
Once you are there you can deviate at will.
Hope this helps,
wim
what is your objective?
Placing middle gray in the scene in the middle, zone V, or learning contrast control because that is what the zone system is about. Transmitting the values in the subject matter to a previsualisation. (In normal words you see the print before your eyes) and controlling exposure and development to obtain these values in the negative. Off course this works best with sheet film or shoot an entire roll with the same dev, (buy a 6x17
)Now whatever method you use, there are plenty, the key is create a standard/protocol
in which you repeat your method with the same film, lens, camera, meter, development etc until you can reproduce results under different contrast circumstances.
Once you are there you can deviate at will.
Hope this helps,
wim
srtiwari
Daktari
Roger,
I'm afraid it is still a bit confusing. In your examples. it would seem to me that the 3 stop difference you describe in the 'overast vs sunny' scenario, would be made up by a 3 stop difference in reading you would get EVEN from an incident meter.
Subhash
skibeerr
Well-known
Oh,
in a most dashing way I managed NOT to answer your question.
YES measuring the incident light gives you zone V everywhere (shadows notwithstanding)
Not nitpicking over calibration of meters.
in a most dashing way I managed NOT to answer your question.
YES measuring the incident light gives you zone V everywhere (shadows notwithstanding)
Not nitpicking over calibration of meters.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Umm... Someone who wants to answer a question about metering?
Read the rest of the reply and you may see that I DID attempt to answer the OP's question.
Cheers,
R.
srtiwari
Daktari
srtiwari,
what is your objective?
Placing middle gray in the scene in the middle, zone V, or learning contrast control because that is what the zone system is about. Transmitting the values in the subject matter to a previsualisation. (In normal words you see the print before your eyes) and controlling exposure and development to obtain these values in the negative. Off course this works best with sheet film or shoot an entire roll with the same dev, (buy a 6x17
Now whatever method you use, there are plenty, the key is create a standard/protocol
in which you repeat your method with the same film, lens, camera, meter, development etc until you can reproduce results under different contrast circumstances.
Once you are there you can deviate at will.
Hope this helps,
wim
I don't know (yet) if it helps, but thank you, anyway.
My objective is both, arriving at the best exposure for a given scene, and also knowing how to use the zone system to control contrast in some situations. And yes, I am also aware of all the other influences- lens, film, developing, papers, types of enlargers, software capabilities etc., etc., on contrast.
I am trying to understand the Zone system so that I can respond to varying light more intuitively.
srtiwari
Daktari
This sounds logical to me, even as a novice. So...why all the extra complicated-ness ? If the Incident meter reads out Zone V, then all U need to know is how to assess contrast in a scene to figure out where all the other zones fall ! Is this correct in general ? And no, I don't mean for every possible situations and type of film etc...
skibeerr
Well-known
My advice for now, loose the zone system (for now!)
Take a good incident light meter, meter as close to your subject as you can get (doing landscapes just do it from where you stand) and take the photo.
Easy
Take a good incident light meter, meter as close to your subject as you can get (doing landscapes just do it from where you stand) and take the photo.
Easy
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Sorry.
Look at it this way.
Incident reading in sun (for sake of argument) 1/250 @ f/16. Use that exposure, and there will be NO detail in the dark areas under the roots, because they're 5 stops darker than your reading.
Incident reading on overcast day (for sake of argument) 1/60 @ f/8. Use that exposure and there should be detail in the dark areas under the roots, because they're only 3 stops darker.
It's all a question of subject brightness range. The old name for incident light metering is the 'artificial highlight method', because that's effectively what you're reading. The point is that with an artificial highlight reading or a grey card reading, you cannot know how much darker the shadows will be than your inc¡dent/grey card reading. The ONLY way to do this is via a direct reading of the shadows themselves.
I have read (though I have never verified it and could not provide a reference) that Ansel Adams himself reckoned that his exposures increased by an average of one stop when he got a spot meter. This seems quite likely to me.
Cheers,
R.
tlitody
Well-known
Get a spot meter if you are going to do zone system metering and do the necessary testing. Forget about 18% grey. Never even think of it again. It will cause you more confusion than anything else ever will except for grey cards which are even more confusing. They are not necessary and 18% is a red herring. With zone system you are interested in shadow values and highlight values. The middle will go where it goes.
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
skibeerr
Well-known
the zone system only ads confusion now ( I bought "The negative " as my first photo related book ever. Mistake)
I will try to keep it simple.
You walk thru the woods and see a nice scene. You take your 35mm camera, measure the light and snap you have a photo. On and on contrasty and flat scenes all on one roll, a perfectly exposed roll at that no worries.
In developing that roll you aim for the middle ground, you give standard development and sort out the contrast when you print/scan.
With the zone system you walk thru the same wood and see a nice scene. You imagine the print this scene will give and where you want all those nice tonal values to end up on your print. So here you determine how white for example the birch bark will be and how much detail you will show in the shadow under that rock.
So you measure the bark and the shadow with your spotmeter and relate the measurment to zones and expose accordingly. Also you must adjust your development to be sure the different measurements end up on their zone.
You understand this type of work requires a specific dev. per scene and is therefore the domain of the large format crowd al tough it can be done perfectly with rolls, just more trouble than it's worth.
I will try to keep it simple.
You walk thru the woods and see a nice scene. You take your 35mm camera, measure the light and snap you have a photo. On and on contrasty and flat scenes all on one roll, a perfectly exposed roll at that no worries.
In developing that roll you aim for the middle ground, you give standard development and sort out the contrast when you print/scan.
With the zone system you walk thru the same wood and see a nice scene. You imagine the print this scene will give and where you want all those nice tonal values to end up on your print. So here you determine how white for example the birch bark will be and how much detail you will show in the shadow under that rock.
So you measure the bark and the shadow with your spotmeter and relate the measurment to zones and expose accordingly. Also you must adjust your development to be sure the different measurements end up on their zone.
You understand this type of work requires a specific dev. per scene and is therefore the domain of the large format crowd al tough it can be done perfectly with rolls, just more trouble than it's worth.
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