New S-mount Sonnar 50/1.5 from Zeiss

Tom A said:
I saw the proto type of this lens in March in Japan. At that time there was a thought of making a {very) small run of these lenses with a Contax C-mount, but Zeiss was not really interested (at that time at least).
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For marketing perspective, it's maybe a better idea to build a new Sonnar in S-mount, because there is more S-mount cameras and users than C-mount 'in active duty'.

But if Zeiss and Cosina suddenly decide to build a C-mount version of current Zeiss Ikon body (as Cosina did with Bessa R2, R2C and R2S) and call the new body 'Contax', then making a C-mount version of that new Sonnar is maybe more reasonable! 😉 But I'm not sure, if Kyocera is still holding the brand-name 'Contax', or is it back to Zeiss? And how many users would buy a re-packed Zeiss Ikon in C-mount? 🙂

Tom: do you know, was it Cosina and Mr. K's initiative to make than new S-mount Sonnar, or was it Zeiss who got that idea? Which one was more active in this process?
 
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If I'm not mistaken, C-Sonnar stands for "compact sonnar", I saw this somewhere on Zeiss website.

The C Sonnar T* 1.5/50 ZM lens is the modern technological reincarnation of the classical Sonnar 1.5/50, the fastest standard lens of its time, for the Contax II rangefinder camera.

It is fast, very resistant to flaring and unusually compact – therefore the “C” in the lens name.
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darkkavenger said:
If I'm not mistaken, C-Sonnar stands for "compact sonnar", I saw this somewhere on Zeiss website.
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I have seen it, too. Zeiss calls it 'compact' here:
http://www.zeiss.com/c12567a8003b58b9/Contents-Frame/efadab346a2cb77dc12571880041b10c

They have also a 'C Biogon T* 4,5/21 ZM' and C means there 'compact', too. But now, when they start producing a S-mount version of Sonnar lens with Cosina, they should maybe change the letter 'C' to 'S' on lens name and barrel...
 
This is my first post, I've lurked in the background for a couple of years. I have a Contax IIa, Contax II, V2C, V3M & a collection of old Kiev's.

I have a pre-war Nickel & Black Zeiss 50/1.5 (Single Coated?) a postwar Zeiss Opton 50/1.5 & various Russian J3's

A new Cosina made 50/1.5 would interest me, to go on my Contax, I maybe wrong, but surely there is less of a problem fitting this lens to Nikon/Contax as it uses the helical of the lens mount, and contains no moveable elements itself. I don't know what the back focus distance is on a Contax versus the Nikon, but if it is different it is only a matter of shimming the lens within its mount - something that on the original Zeiss & Russian copies is very easy. As I understood it the problem on other lenses that use the outer mount, & contain the helical within the lens is the pitch of the focus helical thread being different so introducing a progressive error, relative to the rangefinder?? Is this the case??

On the optical glass makers part of the thread, I'm almost certain Cooke here in the UK make their own, they have there own private sand quarry. I work for Panavision, and Tom A is correct about our lenses, we buy a batch of glass sufficient to make the entire production run Zooms, Primes etc so they colour match across all the range. We do also buy Cooke lenses in the UK, & my understanding is that they use there own glass. We project every lens before it goes out on a job, and the Cookes, of all types, have there own unique look & colour.

Stephen

PS As this is my first post, please let me know if I've got something wrong 🙂
 
Seteve, welcome here 🙂

Unfortunately, the difference between S and Contax mount is not backfocus distance but reference focal length of 50mm lenses: around 51mm for Nikon and closer to 53 for Contax. This requires different pitch of focusing helical to ensure correct RF measurement throughout the focusing range, since the amount of travel from infinity to closest distance is different for different focals. You can not correct this by shimming without losing infinity.

Nikon has borrowed the 51mm figure from Leica, so adapting ZM C-Sonnar to S mount is a trivial exercise of changing the mount. Adjusting the Sonnar for Contax mount would require tweaking the focal length, which might not be feasible for tiny production batch.
 
Standard lenses for both Nikon and Leica are 51.6mm (or 51.8mm depending on what you read).

And standard lenses for Contax are 52.3mm (or 52.4mm depending on what you read).

You could shim a Nikon lens, but you still have the problem of different helical pitches which causes the problem as mentioned in this thread (copied below).

The focal plane to mount distance is the same. The Nikon helical has a different pitch from the Contax due to the mechanics of linking the lens mount to the rangefinder. Shimming may disguise the problem by moving the point where the two mounts' focus match from infinity to an intermediate distance—where DOF has a better chance of disguising the difference.
 
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jonmanjiro said:
You could shim a Nikon lens so that the focal length is the same as Contax, but you still have the problem of different helical pitches which causes the problem as mentioned in this thread (copied below).
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Jon, shimming doesn't alter focal length: it offsets the lens to close-focus position where it would be in its "proper" helical. To tweak focal length would require changing distance between lens groups, and will also throw lens out of its optimum performance (calculated at design stage).
 
James, the Japanese says ニコンS マウント (do the characters display properly?), which says Nikon S mount, so there is no question that this lens is for Nikon RF. As to the meaning of the C ....dunno mate
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Ahhhh Its probably hidden as all I get when I open the page are strange characters with the sizes readable. I cant see any reference to it being an S mount lens from the way my browser sees it. I have tried the Heliar S on both and found no evidence of focusing issues wide open and close up but this may be due to it being so slow.

For marketing perspective, it's maybe a better idea to build a new Sonnar in S-mount, because there is more S-mount cameras and users than C-mount 'in active duty'.
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I would have to disagree with that. With the Kievs using the Contax form for decades I would think more Contax mount cameras exist rather than Nikon Rangefinders out there.
 
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Captain said:
I would have to disagree with that. With the Kievs using the Contax form for decades I would think more Contax mount cameras exist rather than Nikon Rangefinders out there.
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Sorry, I almost forgot those Kievs, because they come so far away from our country. 😉 But how many Kiev user would buy such an expensive lens for their camera? If I were Mr. K from Cosina, I would vote for S-mount production and Nikon rf-users, because adapting ZM C-Sonnar to S mount is also easier.
 
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varjag said:
Jon, shimming doesn't alter focal length: it offsets the lens to close-focus position where it would be in its "proper" helical. To tweak focal length would require changing distance between lens groups, and will also throw lens out of its optimum performance (calculated at design stage).
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Thanks for that correction. Of course you can't change the focal length .... what was I thinking 😕
 
Captain said:
Ahhhh Its probably hidden as all I get when I open the page are strange characters with the sizes readable. I cant see any reference to it being an S mount lens from the way my browser sees it.
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Japanese looks Greek to me too after a day in the office 🙂

I marked the part that says "Nikon S mount" in the picture below.
 

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There are of course other glass makers out there as Stephen pointed out, but what makes Cosina unique is that they also makes the cameras and lenses that the glass fo on! This allows them to do small batches for a specific lens or lens run.
There is also another factor here. As CV also makes ultra high resolution surveillance lenses (you better smile - you are on a hiden camera somewhere) they also have some of the most sophisticaated coating equipment made. Theoretically they can put 60 layers of singe molecule coatings on the elements. I asked Mr Kobayashi about it and he said that he did not know if it was practical or even useful to do so, but he liked the fact that he could!
As for who decided what in relation to the production of the S mount 50f1.5, I do know but cant tell. On the other hand. I suspect that Mr Kobayashi has more Nikon Rf's than Zeiss!
 
Tom A said:
As for who decided what in relation to the production of the S mount 50f1.5, I do know but cant tell. On the other hand. I suspect that Mr Kobayashi has more Nikon Rf's than Zeiss!
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OK, somehow I knew, that you would know... 🙂 Do you have one of those pre-production lenses already?
 
jsuominen said:
OK, somehow I knew, that you would know... 🙂 Do you have one of those pre-production lenses already?
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I don't have a pre-production lens, but I suspect that I might get one as a Christmas present or something. Mr Kobayashi and I tend to ship each other nifty stuff when we find it. He is a collector/user and I am a user/hoarder. I might give him my stash of Zeiss Ikon lenses this year, once the Zeikon project is over. nothing particularly rare except the Planar 35/3.5 and the Tessar 28f8 which are more uncommon than rare.
 
Sonnar 5cm T* F1.5 lens

Sonnar 5cm T* F1.5 lens

I just entered this forum to discuss the same lens and discover there is already a whole thread. Somehat disappointed it's in Nikon S and not Contax CZ mount. I also immedately thought the 4.5/21 wil be released in this classic mount and that there might be a Zeiss Ikon ZM in Contax Mount (after all Cosina has already done this once with the Bessa).
What's missing is a 135mm Sonnar!
tessar_man

jonmanjiro said:
This is certainly interesting news!

http://www.cosina.co.jp/seihin/co/s-50limited/index.html

* Rangefinder Nikon S mount
* A lens that inherits the legendary Sonnar 5cm F1.5 lens configuration
* Soft at full aperture, but sharpens up when stopped down
* 11 blade circular aperture diaphram for beautiful bokeh

Main Specs
Focal length: 50mm
Aperture range: f1.5 to f16
Focus range: 0.9m to infinity
Picture angle (diagonal/horizontal): 46 degrees / 38 degrees
Area of coverage at minimum focus distance: 36cm by 55 cm
Lens configuration: 6 elements in 4 groups
Filter size: 43mm
Weight: 190g
Diameter (at widest part): 48.8mm
Length (from mount): 34.2mm
Rangefinder coupled range: 0.9m to infinity
Mount: Nikon S
Sonnar T*1.5/50 Limited Edition?
List price: (not including tax) 105,000 yen
Lens shade included
Limited order production: orders accepted from 20th September 2007 to 31st December 2007 through authorised Carl Zeiss agents.
Note that this is limited production run and it might take some time to fill the orders.
The lens will be shipped from March 2008 (planned).

z1.5-50-s.jpg
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Oh, I get it. Cosina. Why does it say Zeiss then? Are the Zeiss RF lenses made by Cosina? I thought they weren't. Is it just me or does this blur the line/distinction?
 
Interestingly enough our webmaster is not totally wrong here. When it comes to filmbased cameras Cosina makes about 60-70% of what is available in japan! As for dell computers, Ipod's etc I dont know, but I am doubtful about it🙂
I cant see anything wrong with a debate or discussion about Nikon lenses, cameras etc and incorporate lenses made by other manufacturers that are compatible with these cameras. I am not a collector and although i appreciate the older lenses and cameras and accesories for Nikon's I am only interested in these items as they pertain to my use of the cameras.
The idea of a Sonnar 50f1.5 in S-mount is interesting to me as I use that lens in M-mount and to have it in a S-mount adds to my "arsenal". Of course, any new lens for the Nikon's also raises the interest for the cameras and the original lenses and thus adds "Nikonians" to the fold.
We should also remember that what today is a mundane non-Nikon lens could easily become a prized collectible later as the production of these new lenses is much smaller than the equivalent Nikon lenses! The 50f1.5 Sonnar S-mount will most likely have a run of 500 or maybe at the most 1000 lenses. A small run even by the standards of the more esoteric Nikon lenses.
The Leica M was for decades my working camera (as was Hasselblad's and Sinar's) and the Nikon rf is a hobby or "amateur" tool for me. They are different and they are the fun part of photography - I have no intention of regarding them as investments or collectibles. I enjoy reading about the history of the camera (more so than i do about Leica history by the way) and the people involved in the world of Nikon Rf's, both other users like me and the collectors who are the historians and information resource when we need to know.
I truly enjoy the membership in NHS and they do have the best meetings and the pressure is on us here in Vancouver to top the Vienna meeting ( a tall order to say the least).
I do not think that using a non Nikon lens on a Nikon RF is heresy or equals drawing a mustache on Mona Lisa! If it was, she would be rather hirsute by now as i have been shooting strictly with Zeiss Contax Rf lenses on my Nikon's for the last 10 days!
 
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