M4-P. An undervalued gem?

Cool, I never even cosidered the possibility of changing the advance leaver! That WOULD make it perfect!
 
TJV said:
Cool, I never even cosidered the possibility of changing the advance leaver! That WOULD make it perfect!
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It made it perfect ! :D:D:D The lever was about 50 USD and the tool (I forgot the name ...) about 10 USD or so. Time for changing about 5 minutes.

If Leica would offer the M4-P as an "a-la-carte" modell (cheaper and meterless alternative to the MP) with the option of an "classic" rewind knob / advance lever, I would be the first one on the order list, seriously ! :)
 
I think the real undervalued gem is an early (but not tooooo early) M4-2. Better framelines - more accurate and less cluttered - same as M4. Brass top-plate. No silly looking red dot. I also much prefer the resessed windows - they collect far fewer finderprints and smudges. And they're usually just a little bit cheaper than the M4-P's.

The truth is that after the M4 the M's had progressively more and more corners cut until they redressed the situation somewhat with the MP. Therefore the M4-2 is the least compromised post-M4 Leica. Caveat: some think the most early M4-2's with 14xxxxx serial numbers should be passed over.
 
TJV, I bought my M4-P new in 1984 and it is still going strong. It has had the odd service over the years, but nothing too dramatic. I mainly have a 50mm summicron on it, it is a workmans Leica, nothing too flash, just gets on and does the job. A few years ago I ran into the dealer I bought it from, and he said neaver sell it, for just that reason. What`s the big deal about the red dot ? My right hand covers it completely when I`m carrying it. I would like to get a new rubber pad for the neck strap, though.
 
And an other thing, frame lines, with the 50mm on, only those lines and the 75mm`s corner notches are visible, BIG DEAL. Metering,yes in camera metering is nice, but there is nothing wrong with a small hand held gossen and probably more accurate. As you can tell I`m rather pasionate about my little ophan M, as somone else mentioned buy the M4-P and use the savings to buy lots of film.
 
Ferider,

Some M4-2 require the special tool. Even my Brass M4-P needs that special tool.
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This M4-P discussion is getting old. THe M4-P camera is the same as the supposedly "better" and more expensive M6.

The M4-P is a great camera and IMO, it's equal to any other M out there. The differences that people are talking about (newer Ms versus Oldre Ms) are esoteric and no different then any other urban legends.

M4-P is a great cam.
 
waileong said:
Undervalued, perhaps, but not a gem.

The camera was a cheapened version of the M4, hence the lower price.

$250 is not much in the Leica world, and you'll get it back when you resell the M6 or M3 or M4 anyway. But the craftsmanship of an M2 or M3 easily blows away M4-P. Or if you're into big metered cameras, even the M5 is a better camera.
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I guess I'm gonna belabour these oft heard comments a little more. I have a M2 and a M4-P as well I've had a M3. The M2 (used) was made in '62 I bought it in '67. My M4-P came to me about '86. like most of us, I use my
cameras extensively, and I mean extensively.

I have had them all apart for servicing myself. I've seen the innards of all three as well as the innards of may other cameras in my time.

I have both my M2 and M4-P on this desk as I write this. The M4-P is black and the winder feels a little different than the M2. (Steel gears.) The M2 is chrome.

Inside and outside the "craftsmanship" remains the same. Believe me! Most parts are actually interchangeable.

I am very fond of both cameras.

If someone will sell their M4-2 or M4-P for less than it is worth don't hesitate to buy it. They will shine as brightly as any other M.

These days my wife and I have a little gallery that sells artist supplies. Oil paints, brushes etc. We have a selection of really basic brushes as well as some pretty nice brushes.
Generally the very worst amateur artists tend to buy the best, and most discussed brushes. The best artists, the most talented and creative people don't care. They just buy a brush.
The emperor has no clothes.
 
I think I'll try my m4p out with a shoe mounted meter. Any recommendations for a small one that does good center weighted metering for 35/50 lenses? The MR4 and CV ones seem pretty large. How do the gossens work with the shoe accessory?
 
Ted, the CV II meter is actually pretty small and looks like it was made for the Leica M cameras. I've got one and wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to you.

-Randy
 
How does craftsmanship "blow away" other craftsmanship when comparing between Leicas??
 
Thanks Randy

Thanks Randy

I may go for a black one, how do you find the metering accuracy, compared with an M6 meter?

My ideal meter would show a display of compatible settings without having to first manually set the meter, then set the camera, but i like the size, and that the shoe assembly comes with it, where it's extra with the gossens.

vrgard said:
Ted, the CV II meter is actually pretty small and looks like it was made for the Leica M cameras. I've got one and wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to you.

-Randy
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Ted - I haven't done a direct comparison between the CV II meter and the M6 but from what I can recall they are both considered pretty accurate. And I understand what you're saying about having to transfer a meter reading to the camera. However, what I've learned is to avoid taking meter readings for every shot and, instead, just take a new reading when the lighting conditions change significantly. Alternatively, you can meter for a couple of different conditions that you're shooting in and then just remember those two readings and simply reset your camera settings when you move between those two conditions (and, of course, all the other combinations that likewise work due to reciprocity). All told, I'm really enjoying this kind of operation rather than chasing the diodes in some feeble attempt to get some exact setting for each shot.

-Randy
 
Nice job maddoc! I think if i had a M4-P I would definitely do the same thing.

There is 1 purely ergonomic feature I dislike about the Ms from the M4 onward:

1. the advance lever ---> but it is alterable.

There are 2 purely aesthetic features I dislike about Ms (except MP) from the M4-* onward:

1. Engraved "Leica" model on the front face ---> not alterable.

2. the red dot ---> why??! alterable on the M4-P if you are into changing your covering, cameraleather will cut it w/o the red dot opening. M6 and higher can buy a black dot from DAG:)

I'd be in line with maddoc to pick up one of those a la carte MP-4s or whatever they'd be called...
 
One of my M4-P's dates back to 1982. i have no idea how many 1000's of rolls of film has gone through it over the last 25 years. It was my primary camera for about 5 years. After that it became my "test" bench for making Rapidwinders and was mercilessly beaten up in the shop (4000+ winders were cycled through it. 5 to 10 rolls per winder!) over 20 years! It was serviced quite regularly (every decade or so). The rangefinder went out of whack once when it was dropped and the intermediate gear train was replaced in the early 90's (using it to adjust drives on winders took its toll).
A year ago I had it stripped of what was left of the black chrome (not much!) and painted it black with a "textured" matte black finish. It still works fine and gets a fair amount of film through it, particularly matched to the compact 28f3.5 VC lens. So the 28 finder is a bit tough to see with glasses, but thats how it was from day 1 and I have gotten used to it.
My M2's are a bit smoother maybe and the M6's and MP are more convinient with its built in meters, but the M4P feels bullet proof!
 
I've never heard anyone say anything bad about the M4-P. By all accounts it's a rock solid camera and an undervalued bargain.

The one I handled had framelines that showed the same (bigger) area of coverage as the M2/M4/M5, which is great and makes for more accurate framing than the modern metered bodies. Thus it is the only M body that has the old size markings and takes a Leicavit/Rapidwinder, without any modification.

Essentially the M6 was based on the M4-P, with the addition of the meter and they shrank the frameline coverage to .7 meters from 1 meter. I would be curious to know if you can get the flare fix applied to the M4-P rangefinder...

It's the M4-2 that is a crap shoot. Some are bulletproof, others are temperamental. Mine was rebuilt by Sherry, who had less than complimentary things to say about it's interior, and then died 4 months later. It now sits on the shelf for spare parts.





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