Rodinal and reduced sulfite D-76

[KenD]

Hi Tom,

In an older thread you talked about Jeanloup Sieff mixing up reduced sulfite D-76. Can you give us a sense of how little sulfite can you use without affecting speed on Tri-x? How does low sulfite D-76 compare to rodinal for acutance and brilliance?

Thanks,

Ken

 

[Ronald M]

Don`t know Tom, but D76 works at 1:3, so .25x 80 gm per liter should be ok to hold speed. Can`t say how long it will keep

 

[Tom A]

You can drop the Sodium Sulphite to about 75grams/1000 ml and retain speed (though you might want to add a minute to the time). Some of the old split D76 used as little as 50grams/1000 ml, but I found that too little. Distinct loss of shadow details.
As for acutance, Rodinal will always be better in this aspect as it it a "surface" type developer and it almost "etches" the grain. Sodium Sulphite is a silver halide solvent and dissolves the grain and this will give you a bit softer edges.
If you go to the "Shooting with Kodak XX/Eastman 5222" thread on RFf you will find the beginning of a fairly extensive discussion on the effect of various developer on classic formula film. One suggested is ADOX. slightly reduced Sod. Sulphite and improved grain (Double XX/Tri X behaves very much the same in MQ type developers).
One of the better "soups" is Patrick Gainer's PCK formula (Ascorbic acid/Phenidone and Kodalk). This gives good sharpness, good grain - a bit tighter than D76 and keeps the speed).
At the moment I am running a test on XX/Tri X/Neopan with Sandy King's Pyrocat HD. This looks like a good middle road for acutance and mid tones.
I have posted some already on our Flickr and I just souped 5 rolls tonihjt with a slightly reduced time to see what it looks like. Probably will post some more tomorrow.
Sieff made his own D76 and I suspect that occasionally he manipulated the recipe to fit the subject matter. Not as tricky as it sounds - just shoot a lot of Tri X and figure out which light works with what concoction.

 

[JohnTF]

Tom, have you used R09? I understand it is the old formulation, still marketed by Foma, dilution is 1:40.

Regards, John

 

[Tom A]

John, I cant get the R09 here in Vancouver so I cant really say what it will do. From what I have seen it looks fine, but that is judged from screen images and that is not a good guideline.

 

[rlouzan]

Here you go:

http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/d-76.html

 

[Tom A]

Thanks for the link to the D76 and variations thereoff! And I thought I had tried them all!
I have used the didvided D76 in various disguises and like it. It is consistent and if you filter out the dust and filmchips that invariably accumulates - it lasts a long time.
I only use D76 if I have large volume of film to run - 50+ rolls and also often when we came back from travel and I want consistency to the negatives.
The choice of developer can "change" the look, but in reality - you can do most everything in D76 and it works so well with Tri X.
I have used the D96 on XX and TriX - it works fine, particularly for contrasty stuff, but there is really not that much difference between it and D76.
Well, back to the mixing bench and it is time to try something else.

 

[JohnTF]

R09

R09

John, I cant get the R09 here in Vancouver so I cant really say what it will do. From what I have seen it looks fine, but that is judged from screen images and that is not a good guideline.

I am surprised that Foma does not export chemistry, their former partner, later competition Neobrom was expressing interest in the US market about 12 years ago, and my friend, Misha was "Foma USA" and I used to flog Foma locally for Misha, until Kodak went at Foma for using T in the name of their films.

I had many conversations with Foma, by fax and email, and they were difficult to deal with, they wanted higher than retail for wholesale in quantity, finally asking me where I was getting my prices, and when I told them their store on Wencelas Square, they cut off contact.

I have seen Foma sheet films, finally, in US sizes in Columbus, but it may be too little too late, plus there was no price advantage over Kodak.

I will try and slip a bottle in to Igor's luggage next trip out. I heard a rumor of a three hour camera fest. ;-) I was in Seattle, so close, but no cigar.

I may be down to my last bottle, but either I or my friends will be in Foma's neighborhood within the year. Things are changing there, but am sure the decline in the production of silver products will be an advantage to Foma, if they can get their act together.

Roger gave them a big boost when he recommended their ISO 200 film, and of course it was sold re-branded in England and sometimes by B&H.

Regards, John

 

[Tom A]

John, thanks for the Foma info. At the moment I dont think anyone carries it here in Canada (or in Vancouver). We are going to Photokina in a couple of weeks and I have to assume that they are going to be there.
My problem is that if you try something out and like it - the distributors or the manufacturers suddenly change the formula or you cant get it anymore!
I did try some of the FomoPan T 200 some years ago when I stumbled upon it in Praque. Nice film, but again - not available here so I gave up on it.
I just got 10x100ft of the Arista 400 (supposedly TriX recanned). I will try it out this week, but sunny weather is forcing me to shoot Kodak's 5231 Plus X and use up the loaded Nikon RF cassettes before North West gloom sets in.

 

[JohnTF]

foma

foma

John, thanks for the Foma info. At the moment I dont think anyone carries it here in Canada (or in Vancouver). We are going to Photokina in a couple of weeks and I have to assume that they are going to be there.
My problem is that if you try something out and like it - the distributors or the manufacturers suddenly change the formula or you cant get it anymore!
I did try some of the FomoPan T 200 some years ago when I stumbled upon it in Prague. Nice film, but again - not available here so I gave up on it.
I just got 10x100ft of the Arista 400 (supposedly TriX recanned). I will try it out this week, but sunny weather is forcing me to shoot Kodak's 5231 Plus X and use up the loaded Nikon RF cassettes before North West gloom sets in.

Igor is too busy to go to Photokina, and I teach a class, but was trying to figure a work around, so not likely.

Foma has sold the T200 under at least three names, Kodak sued them, (and us here in the US, though they never knocked on my door) for using T in the name, which was silly to begin with as it is not a T grain film. My friend Misha and I were selling it here and it was catching on until Kodak went nuclear. Foma of course left Misha holding the bag and quickly forgot about the agreement it had made with him to market their products.

I was making enough trips to buy enough of it to keep up with my needs and those of my friends, I even have some sheet film.

It was re-branded and sold as Acupan 200, even in Prague, but I think in England and by B&H. Now its name is "Creative 200" or some such, basically, any Foma 200 is the same, but I guess they like to keep us guessing? I have seen both on the shelf in the same store.

I have not checked B&H's ad or catalog, but last time, they still had the Foma films. Foma is a bit odd in the marketing department, and they had a terrifically odd film in their 800 speed film that was a bit more sensitive in the IR range, lots of interesting grain, etc., and choose to discontinue it. I understand their 100 and 400 films are old school formulations.

They long had problems in roll films with dust in the emulsions, but the 35mm was good and available in bulk. Maybe if I watch your video another dozen times I can figure out those Leica cartridges, but the Foma cartridges were like the old Kodak snap off ones? Basically, if you bought the film in Prague a few years back, it was close to the price of a re-loadable cartridge, so you were sort of getting the film for free. I know they bulked up the prices here, well, would you think a cheap film was any good?

My understanding of R09 is that it was a "liberation" from the communist days of the old Rodinal formulation, and as such, it will not likely change, but given the oddities of Foma marketing, I understand your trepidation. I am not aware of the success or lack of it in their current US marketing in film or chemistry. I actually think they are just not right in the head in marketing, as several of us tried to market them here and they were difficult at best. The could have retailed it at 3x the price in Czech, and made it attractive enough to attract the right consumer group, but I think they just were not sharp enough to figure it all out.

I have not heard much from Roger, guess I should have sent that Christmas Card, but he really liked the film, in my testing days, it seemed to have at least one more tone on the gray scale.

Needle them a bit at Photokina, they deserve it. ;-) Their B&W reversal film is a gem, but I have only had them process it, it takes a week from their store in Prague, Wed. to Wed. Fomapan R? Scans nicely as well, I posted a few shots here just to see if anyone noticed.


Regards, John