brachal
Refrigerated User
Don't be surprised if the Leica has to go off for work sooner than you think. I bought a beautiful, barely used IIIf from KEH, and it needed a CLA almost immediately. Not knocking KEH ... it takes a minor miracle for any 50+ year old camera to work well if it hasn't had a recent CLA. I sent mine to Youxin Ye, and he remarked that the camera had never been taken apart before. The amazing thing, to me, was that it worked at all with 55 year old grease in there.
I like FSU cameras. My FED-3 is silky-smooth, whisper-quiet, and, aside from that awful rewind knob, a real joy to use. I have others FSU's that I like, but I really love my FED-3. And my Leica.
fidget
Lemon magnet
For me they are fun to use and have a certain appeal in their low tech.
I probably bought too many, but they are cheap and having fixed and refixed many, have become attached to a few. I have had more than my money's worth enjoyment out of them.......But, I came to rangefinders because the old cameras I liked just happened to be RFs. Having used them I found that I liked RFs and now use a Bessa R2 and CV glass. I wish I had started with the Bessa and bought a few FSU cams for fun later......
I probably bought too many, but they are cheap and having fixed and refixed many, have become attached to a few. I have had more than my money's worth enjoyment out of them.......But, I came to rangefinders because the old cameras I liked just happened to be RFs. Having used them I found that I liked RFs and now use a Bessa R2 and CV glass. I wish I had started with the Bessa and bought a few FSU cams for fun later......
giovatony
Well-known
Been there and done that regarding the Leica scene..
I found that if you gotta spend big bucks to look thru a crummy Barnack Leica VF you might be more attached to the name than anything else and maybe would have been better off with a good CLA`d FSU.
I presently have a Zorki 3 and Kiev 4A and both are a pleasure to use with their larger VF`s compared to my Leica .
Both mine have been CLA`d and still cost less than $250 for the both of them. AND they both have excellent lenses attached.
Try getting a good used squinty eyed Leica for that kind of money.
John
I found that if you gotta spend big bucks to look thru a crummy Barnack Leica VF you might be more attached to the name than anything else and maybe would have been better off with a good CLA`d FSU.
I presently have a Zorki 3 and Kiev 4A and both are a pleasure to use with their larger VF`s compared to my Leica .
Both mine have been CLA`d and still cost less than $250 for the both of them. AND they both have excellent lenses attached.
Try getting a good used squinty eyed Leica for that kind of money.
John
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photovdz
Well-known
my best contax is a FSU noname contax... it's the quietest smoother of the whole lot (10 true contaxes II, III, IIa, IIIa...and 1 kiev) ;-)
A good FSU RF (being FED, Zorki or Kiev) needs attention and a real knowledge of photography... but they can be reliable... and they made (quality) photography available for millions...
but as a daily shooter I use a M6 with a contax lens (adapter) and a G2...
A good FSU RF (being FED, Zorki or Kiev) needs attention and a real knowledge of photography... but they can be reliable... and they made (quality) photography available for millions...
but as a daily shooter I use a M6 with a contax lens (adapter) and a G2...
mh2000
Well-known
Well, $325 for a beautiful and perfectly working Leica IIIC is hardly "big bucks," considering that an excellent copy of a FED or Zorki will total nearly $200 after a CLA.
Regarding Barnack style cameras, I love them... though I really have a greater fondness for the russ-tic charm of the FSU versions (maybe I've just encounted too many Leica snobs in my life)... though in the end I am most fond of taking photos with cameras that work properly.
I think that I can probably give my Zorki-4 a proper CLA... so once I get the time... (and yes, the 1:1 RF is great... )
>>I found that if you gotta spend big bucks to look thru a crummy Barnack Leica VF you might be more attached to the name than anything else and maybe would have been better off with a good CLA`d FSU.
Regarding Barnack style cameras, I love them... though I really have a greater fondness for the russ-tic charm of the FSU versions (maybe I've just encounted too many Leica snobs in my life)... though in the end I am most fond of taking photos with cameras that work properly.
I think that I can probably give my Zorki-4 a proper CLA... so once I get the time... (and yes, the 1:1 RF is great... )
>>I found that if you gotta spend big bucks to look thru a crummy Barnack Leica VF you might be more attached to the name than anything else and maybe would have been better off with a good CLA`d FSU.
mh2000
Well-known
part of me wonders if I should have gotten a R3M instead of the IIIC... but if I end up with both, that would be fine too!
>> Having used them I found that I liked RFs and now use a Bessa R2 and CV glass. I wish I had started with the Bessa and bought a few FSU cams for fun later......
>> Having used them I found that I liked RFs and now use a Bessa R2 and CV glass. I wish I had started with the Bessa and bought a few FSU cams for fun later......
giovatony
Well-known
Whoops! I`m sorry to have sounded like I was accusing you of being snobbish.
Obviously you did get a good deal on the Leica. Usually a beautiful and perfectly working Leica as you say yours is will cost more than you paid.
Good luck with it and enjoy.
John
mh2000
Well-known
no, I've thought about that... and the sad thing is that I'll feel much better sinking money into a camera that has some value and is likely to work perfectly for a very long time after servicing... though my curtains look brand new so maybe my IIIC won't need service for a long time.
>>Don't be surprised if the Leica has to go off for work sooner than you think.
>>Don't be surprised if the Leica has to go off for work sooner than you think.
R
ruben
Guest
I am hearing a tone of bitterness as this thread evolves.
mh2000 is and will continue to be our friend. The problems he had and may have - are objective, going with the land. Anyone is entitled to his own experience and conclusions, and this includes our friend as well as the rest of us who don't follow his path.
It is untrue that mh2000 complains are absolutely imaginary. As for his solution, the FSU itself as a political system, once tryied to be a solution too to non imaginary problems. So why not wish our friend "good luck" ?
Cheers,
Ruben
mh2000 is and will continue to be our friend. The problems he had and may have - are objective, going with the land. Anyone is entitled to his own experience and conclusions, and this includes our friend as well as the rest of us who don't follow his path.
It is untrue that mh2000 complains are absolutely imaginary. As for his solution, the FSU itself as a political system, once tryied to be a solution too to non imaginary problems. So why not wish our friend "good luck" ?
Cheers,
Ruben
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spiderfrank
just a dreamer
I entered in the RF word with a Bessa R (a new R from Cameraquest was cheaper than a used one here in Italy, so I so decided to take a try), and recently bought a Kiev II. I know my R is affordable, modern and take wonderful shots ( thank you, Mr. Kobayashi ! ), but also I like my Kiev, for its elegance, the huge rangefinder base (wow!), and the sound of the shutter... And of course I like the character of the Jupiter-8 that came with it.
mh2000
Well-known
thanks Ruben!
I do still have both Maizenberg and Princelle on my nightstand.
and having a working RF takes some of the pressure off my FSU's having to work... kind of like the difference of trying to drive a Triumph to work everyday as your only car or just tinkering with it and running it on odd wonderful weekends.
I do still have both Maizenberg and Princelle on my nightstand.
and having a working RF takes some of the pressure off my FSU's having to work... kind of like the difference of trying to drive a Triumph to work everyday as your only car or just tinkering with it and running it on odd wonderful weekends.
Spider67
Well-known
Hi Ruben,
I don´t detect any bitterness but some amiable candour in this thread.
Finally we come to the conclusion that using FSU´s is often mor of a love affair then a rational decision.
Bitterness often resultedt when a newbie got infos like "...sure your J 12 will fit on a Bessa R!", "A Zorki/Fed equal every Leica" etc.
Now that we admit that it´s always a bit of tinkering, that there is a quality problem (hey I am sure to be one of the few who actually bought a Kiev 4AM new in the box....and had to have it repaired it immediately!)......But we still love them! Actually I just got a Kive from Ondrej and finally I´ve that close to Contax feeling I was always longing for. And my Kiev 5 is one of my special purpose cameras.
Having FSU also taught me to appreciate the high quality of a Leica IIIc I´ve bought from Keith and to do some repairs myself.
Regrads from rainy Vienna (but there is still Strudel!)
Des
I don´t detect any bitterness but some amiable candour in this thread.
Finally we come to the conclusion that using FSU´s is often mor of a love affair then a rational decision.
Bitterness often resultedt when a newbie got infos like "...sure your J 12 will fit on a Bessa R!", "A Zorki/Fed equal every Leica" etc.
Now that we admit that it´s always a bit of tinkering, that there is a quality problem (hey I am sure to be one of the few who actually bought a Kiev 4AM new in the box....and had to have it repaired it immediately!)......But we still love them! Actually I just got a Kive from Ondrej and finally I´ve that close to Contax feeling I was always longing for. And my Kiev 5 is one of my special purpose cameras.
Having FSU also taught me to appreciate the high quality of a Leica IIIc I´ve bought from Keith and to do some repairs myself.
Regrads from rainy Vienna (but there is still Strudel!)
Des
windraider
Established
Re
Re
Every FSU camera I got was off ebay and had a problem.
Some could be fixed with a little help from the internet (Fed 3).
Others just gave me grief (Kiev 4)- fix one problem another showed up.
My attraction to them is their old world build - solid, heavy, chromed beasts which gave pleasing and unique (in a good way) images. More character than Japanese film cameras.
I suppose that is the charm of FSUs - you get to brag how cheap you bought them, how you got them working and how no one else gets the same kind of pictures you got.
While I love my Fed 3, I don't think I would like the trouble of getting another FSU
Re
Every FSU camera I got was off ebay and had a problem.
Some could be fixed with a little help from the internet (Fed 3).
Others just gave me grief (Kiev 4)- fix one problem another showed up.
My attraction to them is their old world build - solid, heavy, chromed beasts which gave pleasing and unique (in a good way) images. More character than Japanese film cameras.
I suppose that is the charm of FSUs - you get to brag how cheap you bought them, how you got them working and how no one else gets the same kind of pictures you got.
While I love my Fed 3, I don't think I would like the trouble of getting another FSU
R
ruben
Guest
Kievs today suffer from a serious handicap. To my knowledge there is no reliable high quality fixing service, unlike the ones found for Contaxes and Leicas.
Now, I know you are going to jump with some fixers well known to most of us, and I still stand on my grounds.
But what may be worth trying is to localize Contax fixers worldwide (excluding Henry Scherer) and ask them if they would agree to fix/CLA a Kiev for the price they fix/CLA a Contax, provided they compromise beforehand to achieve the mechanical softness and accuracy rangefinder levels they give a Contax.
Since Kievs bear a cheap buying price, non-Contax fixers assume no one is going to invest a Contax CLA price for a Kiev. This may be true. But what I know is that a high class CLA - worth many working hours - can definitely bring a Kiev into levels I have only dreamed before seeing its results with my own eyes, ears and hands.
Cheers,
Ruben
Now, I know you are going to jump with some fixers well known to most of us, and I still stand on my grounds.
But what may be worth trying is to localize Contax fixers worldwide (excluding Henry Scherer) and ask them if they would agree to fix/CLA a Kiev for the price they fix/CLA a Contax, provided they compromise beforehand to achieve the mechanical softness and accuracy rangefinder levels they give a Contax.
Since Kievs bear a cheap buying price, non-Contax fixers assume no one is going to invest a Contax CLA price for a Kiev. This may be true. But what I know is that a high class CLA - worth many working hours - can definitely bring a Kiev into levels I have only dreamed before seeing its results with my own eyes, ears and hands.
Cheers,
Ruben
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brachal
Refrigerated User
I wish you luck. I almost cried when I had to send mine off.
They really are amazing cameras. The trouble with mine was pretty minor (shutter capping on 500 and 1000 due to dryness) ... again amazing when you consider the age of the camera. I think any money spent keeping a Barnack Leica working is money VERY well spent. We should be able to deduct it from our taxes.giovatony
Well-known
It`s all relative though. The leica has some value because you paid $325 for it. That`s almost 3 times what a good CLA`d FSU with a fast lens cost. Matter of fact I do think $325 will possibly buy 3 CLA`d FSU`s with a good 50mm lens attached from a reputable seller.(there`s only a few) .
The catch being the extent or degree of CLA. However regardless of camera brand ,leica, Contax, or FSU the cost of a totally thorough CLA plus new curtains might be nearly cost prohibitive . That we have to accept and understand what we get with a limited CLA.
All these cameras are quite old and worn and anything can happen at any time with them even after a CLA.
John
mh2000
Well-known
No, the Leica has value because I can sell it for at least as much as I bought it for and a recent quality CLA will even increase that value, a FED camera will remain fixed, possibly be difficult to sell at all and probably drop in price as film dies out (I expect Leicas to maintain value if only for mystique and being collectorable)... also, where am I going to get a fully CLA-ed FED or Zorki for $100? I tried to get one (twice) from fedka and a few other times from highly rated ebay sellers... and could not get one that both worked fully or could be accurately adjusted for both near and far distances... I tried. Then add another $100 for a trip to Oleg and you are over $200... I'm sure some people have been luckier than me. Yuri tried, and I give him credit, but he also said that if I wanted a "Leica out of a FED" he couldn't help me since the economy of assuring fully adjusted and serviced cameras would make them too expensive to sell. The first camera intermittently hung open at 1/50th which Maizenberg states is simply a need of clean and lube... but Yuri wasn't willing to do it. Curtains and top quality CLA for all but the Contax are $150-200... but then you would expect it to work until you can no longer buy film (if it wasn't FSU).
When I get back from vacation I do plan on tinkering with my FED-2 and Zorki-4... so I'm not saying I'm not still charmed by the little devilish things...
>>That`s almost 3 times what a good CLA`d FSU with a fast lens cost.
When I get back from vacation I do plan on tinkering with my FED-2 and Zorki-4... so I'm not saying I'm not still charmed by the little devilish things...
>>That`s almost 3 times what a good CLA`d FSU with a fast lens cost.
SCOTFORTHLAD
Slow learner,but keen!
FSU Cameras are great fun for me-I probably only use 20 rolls a year,so it's not crucial that they are foolproof,and I'll use something else on important occasions.When a photographic 'happy accident' occurs for me,it's even better if a FSU camera or lens is involved.
I've had both a Leica and a Contax in the past two years,but passed them on.They seemed like an extravagance to me,being a cheapskate at heart.
Not to mention the generational thing.Being young in an era when everyone had to 'make do and mend'I'm afraid I'm trapped in that mindset,and it's getting too late to change now.
Brian.
I've had both a Leica and a Contax in the past two years,but passed them on.They seemed like an extravagance to me,being a cheapskate at heart.
Not to mention the generational thing.Being young in an era when everyone had to 'make do and mend'I'm afraid I'm trapped in that mindset,and it's getting too late to change now.
Brian.
40oz
...
what amuses me are the people who somehow suggest that "yes, paying more for a leica is worth it," yet somehow reject the notion that the reason they never had a properly functioning FSU body is because they were never willing to pay what it cost.
As far as FSU lenses go, how many of you have snapshots of test charts in your wallet? Is that really the only measure of a lens' quality - how well it shows dots and lines on a test chart? I'm just reassured to know that there have never been good pictures taken until this very day, when photographers have access to lenses that aren't crap. I mean, just look at all those so-called "good photos" that have been taken with inferior equipment. Imagine how much better life would be had the photographers only known they were wasting their time because they didn't have a modern Summicron.
Seriously, anyone who thinks $20 on ebay buys the best of the breed needs their head examined. You bought a POS from someone getting rid of it for a reason, don't pretend your used piece of crap is somehow a representative example of production.
As far as anecdotal claims about FSU factory quality, I file those in the same place as anecdotal claims about US auto production - "don't buy a car made on Monday, all the UAW was hung over and did a shoddy job." Rational thought alone would discount those ideas, but who needs rational thought, right? [waits for someone who doesn't know jack-**** about cars or unions to turn this into an "American cars suck" thread]
These anecdotal claims smack of prejudice and ignorance, a case of "we are better than them," based on ego not facts. Believe them if you want, but it's your own ignorance that informs your opinions. Yeah, the only country in the world with a functional and reliable orbital shuttle has never been capable of quality manufacturing :/
And let's conveniently forget the number of people making a nice living repairing those mystical "perfect" and indestructible Leicas. God forbid you ever break a Leica, because there is nobody alive that could fix it, seeing as they've never needed it, right? All those for sale listings for CLA'd Leicas are obviously liars, as a holy Leica would never need such a thing. Listings for fogged Leica lenses from the 50's are liars as well, because such a thing would NEVER happen. I mean, I've never heard of a fogged Jupiter, and Leica lenses are obviously superior as everyone knows, so therefore there are no fogged Leica lenses. Simple logic.
It's simply amazing to watch the mental gynastics people go through to justify their purchases and experiences. Has it ever occurred to some of you that ownership of Leica bodies and lenses might just be an indication of your pocketbook and not your intelligence or personal value to the world? Dumping money down the toilet on busted FSU bodies is simply a testament to your own ignorance and cheap-skate nature. Buying a CLA'd Leica shows you learned something from the experience, but sadly, you still haven't quite figured out what.
As far as FSU lenses go, how many of you have snapshots of test charts in your wallet? Is that really the only measure of a lens' quality - how well it shows dots and lines on a test chart? I'm just reassured to know that there have never been good pictures taken until this very day, when photographers have access to lenses that aren't crap. I mean, just look at all those so-called "good photos" that have been taken with inferior equipment. Imagine how much better life would be had the photographers only known they were wasting their time because they didn't have a modern Summicron.
Seriously, anyone who thinks $20 on ebay buys the best of the breed needs their head examined. You bought a POS from someone getting rid of it for a reason, don't pretend your used piece of crap is somehow a representative example of production.
As far as anecdotal claims about FSU factory quality, I file those in the same place as anecdotal claims about US auto production - "don't buy a car made on Monday, all the UAW was hung over and did a shoddy job." Rational thought alone would discount those ideas, but who needs rational thought, right? [waits for someone who doesn't know jack-**** about cars or unions to turn this into an "American cars suck" thread]
These anecdotal claims smack of prejudice and ignorance, a case of "we are better than them," based on ego not facts. Believe them if you want, but it's your own ignorance that informs your opinions. Yeah, the only country in the world with a functional and reliable orbital shuttle has never been capable of quality manufacturing :/
And let's conveniently forget the number of people making a nice living repairing those mystical "perfect" and indestructible Leicas. God forbid you ever break a Leica, because there is nobody alive that could fix it, seeing as they've never needed it, right? All those for sale listings for CLA'd Leicas are obviously liars, as a holy Leica would never need such a thing. Listings for fogged Leica lenses from the 50's are liars as well, because such a thing would NEVER happen. I mean, I've never heard of a fogged Jupiter, and Leica lenses are obviously superior as everyone knows, so therefore there are no fogged Leica lenses. Simple logic.
It's simply amazing to watch the mental gynastics people go through to justify their purchases and experiences. Has it ever occurred to some of you that ownership of Leica bodies and lenses might just be an indication of your pocketbook and not your intelligence or personal value to the world? Dumping money down the toilet on busted FSU bodies is simply a testament to your own ignorance and cheap-skate nature. Buying a CLA'd Leica shows you learned something from the experience, but sadly, you still haven't quite figured out what.
wolves3012
Veteran
I have to disagree. Firstly, a Leica is unlikely to sell for a profit or even a break-even price unless you got a real bargain in the first place. The CLA may increase its value but I doubt you will recover the cost. Like a car, there's a running cost involved in services and you never recover that over time.No, the Leica has value because I can sell it for at least as much as I bought it for and a recent quality CLA will even increase that value, a FED camera will remain fixed, possibly be difficult to sell at all and probably drop in price as film dies out (I expect Leicas to maintain value if only for mystique and being collectorable)... also, where am I going to get a fully CLA-ed FED or Zorki for $100? I tried to get one (twice) from fedka and a few other times from highly rated ebay sellers... and could not get one that both worked fully or could be accurately adjusted for both near and far distances... I tried. Then add another $100 for a trip to Oleg and you are over $200... I'm sure some people have been luckier than me. Yuri tried, and I give him credit, but he also said that if I wanted a "Leica out of a FED" he couldn't help me since the economy of assuring fully adjusted and serviced cameras would make them too expensive to sell. The first camera intermittently hung open at 1/50th which Maizenberg states is simply a need of clean and lube... but Yuri wasn't willing to do it. Curtains and top quality CLA for all but the Contax are $150-200... but then you would expect it to work until you can no longer buy film (if it wasn't FSU).
When I get back from vacation I do plan on tinkering with my FED-2 and Zorki-4... so I'm not saying I'm not still charmed by the little devilish things...
>>That`s almost 3 times what a good CLA`d FSU with a fast lens cost.
Secondly, a FED may well sell quite easily, particularly if it's a 1 or 2. Watch the Ebay listings and see them snapped up at ever-increasing prices.
Thirdly, comes the sad day when film becomes an expensive curiosity then interest in collecting useless ornaments will ensure that all prices drop, Leica or not. One could even argue that to buy something purely as an ornament might lead to a greater drop in high-end camera prices. Why buy an expensive curiosity when a cheaper one is available? After all a FED 1 pretty much looks the same...