Rodinal problem

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alien8

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Hi All,

I just got some very disappointing results using rodinal on pan f plus. The film was barely developed at all - both frame numbers and image highlights are just barely visible. I bought two new bottles of agfa rodinal back in January of this year, and my first rolls with them came out fine (they were acros). Then I didn't use the stuff for a half year, and I just souped these rolls today which did not turn out. I used dev times from the massive dev chart: 11 minutes at 20 C with 1:50 solution. It seems my rodinal has gone bad even though I tightly capped the container and even purged with CO2. Does anyone have any idea why this might have happened? One of the main reasons I decided to go for rodinal was its purported long shelf life (and the fact that it is a liquid concentrate).

Thanks,
Sean
 
Just today I developed 9 rolls of various types of film, all 1:100, a couple of inversions the first couple of minutes and then stand for 30 min. The temp was some 25C or something. All came out fine, apart from the roll that I loaded in a darkroom with a small red indicator light of some machine I couldn't switch off. That one was fogged badly.
My take on rodinal: dilute it 1:100 and leave it alone in tha tank! Graet developer.
 
Well, I'm glad that it's working out for you, but I'm not sure how your post addresses my problems. Given the higher concentration I was using I should have had denser negs than you, but as I mentioned barely anything showed up, including the frame numbers. Leads me to think there is definitely an issue with the chemicals I am using. Can anyone comment on this?
 
I heard that in 1958 in Germany while still cleaning up bombed buildings they found some Rodinal in original bottle. They used it and it was fine. I doubt if it is bad Rodinal. I would think back to figure out if you did something wrong. Dilution mixing would be the most obvious, but temp, time and agitation would also be considered. Also, a long shot, but you need at least xx ml of Rodinal to develop a roll. I can't remember what xx is, but you could look it up here (I thhink):

http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Rodinal/rodinal.html

or here:

http://photo.net/black-and-white-photo-film-processing-forum/002bEr
 
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charjohncarter said:
I heard that in 1958 in Germany while still cleaning up bombed buildings they found some Rodinal in original bottle. They used it and it was fine. I doubt if it is bad Rodinal. I would think back to figure out if you did something wrong. Dilution mixing would be the most obvious, but temp, time and agitation would also be considered. Also, a long shot, but you need at least xx ml of Rodinal to develop a roll. I can't remember what xx is, but you could look it up here (I thhink):

http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Rodinal/rodinal.html

or here:

http://photo.net/black-and-white-photo-film-processing-forum/002bEr
Click to expand...

Just been reading that the general consensus is that 6ml per film is the minimum
 
I would find it hard to believe the Rodinal went bad. I've used Rodinal from a partially full bottle that was left for about 15 years with no problems. It gets rather chunky, but it still works.
While Ilford and and the Massive Dev Chart recommend 11 minutes for 1:50 at 20C, Agfa recommends 18 minutes for this combination.
Also, I've had no problems using less than the recommended 6ml. If I'm developing a single roll at 1:100, I mix 2.5ml with 250ml of water for my 250ml tank.
 
I have used 11 year old Rodinal with no problem. Unlikely that it has gone bad. It only goes off once diluted. Try another roll of across or develop a small clip of film in daylight and it should go black if the dev is ok (which it should be).
 
There has to be a contamination problem.

Always use the same measuring containers such as transfer pipettes, measuring cylinders. syringes, and final mixing containers for developer.

I will also say Rodinal is not the same as it was and the preservative is changed for environmental reasons and does not work as well. Six months is not a problem though. What you don`t know is how long it sat on a store shelf which is why I mix D76 from raw chems. I KNOW how old it is and how long it lasts. Water storage ,temp, sealing, are all controlled. About 7 months and it starts to go bad.

My last rodinal was purchased in 1998 and placed in a well sealed brown glass bottle. I tried some a few months ago and it worked ok.
 
Rodinal & Pan F

Rodinal & Pan F

Florian,
If there was a light leak then the developed negatives would show denser areas, not lighter.

I don't use Pan F but I do use Rodinal at 1+50 on FP4 and have never had a problem. However, I use times of around 14-17 minutes depending on the density and contrast that I'm after and I suspect your problem is entirely to do with the development time. Eleven minutes sounds much too short for this combination, no matter what the charts told you! From your description it sounds like the image was just emerging when you pulled the film.
I haven't looked at your reference charts, but is it possible you picked a time for 1+25 dilution? (Too low a temperature would also do it, or insufficient agitation, but I think time is the most likely culprit.
 
I use Rodinal 1:25 for 6 minutes with PanF and so think 11 minutes and 1:50 should be plenty long enough. I agree that error or contamination is probably the cause. Shoot a quick test roll and try again, then let us know the results.
 
Thanks for all the comments helping to figure out what went wrong. Everything I've heard about rodinal says it lasts forever, and that it shouldn't have been a question of concentrate going bad. However, I think I did everything correctly in terms of dilution, temp, time. I used 10 ml of concentrate and 500 ml of water. All the vessels were carefully rinsed. I posted my problem on agup.org and I got one interesting suggestion. The poster said that perhaps my use of CO2 as cushion to prevent oxydization may have led to formation of carbonic acid in the concentrate which could have thrown of the PH, thereby rendering it impotent. I don't know enough about chemistry to say whether that's plausible, but I don't think that the rodinal has been ruined somehow, so it seems a good bet.
 
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Just to try....
cut a 35mm leader of PanF, prepare some 1+50 Rodinal and dump the leader in there with the lights on
Note how long does it take for that film to become dark gray and then multiply that time by 5. That should be your development time.

The change in pH due to CO2 is possible, but unlikely since Rodinal has a concentration of NaOH that is quie high.
Try buffering with 1/2 tablespoon of wash soda which should reverse this trend and repeat the aboove process.


alien8 said:
Thanks for all the comments helping to figure out what went wrong. Everything I've heard about rodinal says it lasts forever, and that it shouldn't have been a question of concentrate going bad. However, I think I did everything correctly in terms of dilution, temp, time. I used 10 ml of concentrate and 500 ml of water. All the vessels were carefully rinsed. I posted my problem on agup.org and I got one interesting suggestion. The poster said that perhaps my use of CO2 as cushion to prevent oxydization may have led to formation of carbonic acid in the concentrate which could have thrown of the PH, thereby rendering it impotent. I don't know enough about chemistry to say whether that's plausible, but I don't think that the rodinal has been ruined somehow, so it seems a good bet.
Click to expand...
 
That's peculiar, I use the exact same combination - 1:50, 20C, PanF+ (35mm) for 11 minutes. 6ml per reel in a Patterson tank, 30ml + 1500ml water for my five reel tank.

Have you dev'd any other film stock with the Rodinal? Have you used another developer? Perhaps your thermometer is not reading correctly?

I'm using Rodinal which was opened in spring 2007 and a measure which I also use for mixing up fixer (I know it's bad, but I clean it thoroughly).
 
The saga continues... I did a test with the two bottle of rodinal that I have. The open one, which I suspected was contaminated, and the new one. I mixed too bathes at 1:50 a ran a tri-x film leader through each for 4 minutes. Both showed good density, way, way beyond what I had on my pan f rolls, and about equal to each other. So I can only conclude that I must have done something horribly wrong while developing... maybe I rinsed the developing container after I had already put the concentrate it, prior to mixing... I've been developing b+w for twenty years, so this is quite surprising... what a drag.
 
titrisol said:
Just to try....
cut a 35mm leader of PanF, prepare some 1+50 Rodinal and dump the leader in there with the lights on
Note how long does it take for that film to become dark gray and then multiply that time by 5. That should be your development time.
QUOTE]


I've never tried this or even heard of this procedure before. Many thanks! I've got to try it. This is perfect if you have an unknown film (in a bulk loaded cassette for example) or expired film that has lost its original specs.

Thanks!
Click to expand...
 
freeranger said:
Just been reading that the general consensus is that 6ml per film is the minimum
Click to expand...

Not true at all. My lowest is 5 ml in 500ml of water (1+100) for 45 minutes stand development. In fact, with one roll in a 480 ml steel tank, some is wasted giving the same dilution but even less developer.

2730424087_3ecb751062_o.jpg
 
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http://www.fotohuisrovo.nl/documentatie/Rodinal.pdf

12:00 min. for PAN F 1+50 although some info on the new Rodinal leafleat is even wrong.

Your Rodinal will be OK. I did some densitometer tests with old and new Rodinal (over 4.y.o.) and the difference was almost in the accuracy of my densitometer (Heiland TRD-Z).

Something must be happened during your developing process so only a check with a new PAN F film can solve your problem.

About the minimum concentrate /film:
Officially 10ml (according Agfa) for each 135-36 or 120 roll film but the real minimum is indeed 5-6ml. Going down further the result will depend on the amount of black and white areas in your negative. I had this discussion 8 y.a. with a well know production specialist of Agfa in Leverkusen. His explanation is in German only somwhere on my computer system.
 
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