S3 2000 Questions???

gilpen123

gilpen123

Gil
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[COLOR=white]Hi fellow RFFers, I am on the verge of getting this wonderful set and this is the only resource place IMHO where I can get some good user information. As a background, I am a true blooded Nikonian still using various Nikon manual SLRs and used as well some of the best DSLRs in their time; D50, D70, D200 and D300. A few months ago, I sold all my DSLRs and DX lenses except the D50 for those casual event / family shoots and went back retro full time B&W and a bit of slides (Velvia 50 new). Just very recent (August '09), I bought an R3a with Nokton 40 1.4 to try the RF path. I love lowlight street shots and the SLRs are very difficult to get good results at 1/30 and below. Most of my needs are after dusk where it is normal to have f/1.4-1.8 at 1/15 and 1/8 shutter speeds. Almost impossible with SLRs at this speed. With the CV, I used it on almost all lighting situations as the high shutter speed of 1/2000 is usable with a medium yellow filter nrmally from f/8 - f/16 using mostly chromogenic XP2 super/BW400CN rated at ISO 250-320 develop at normal value. I also use Tri-X and HP5 for situations where I anticipate very lowlight shoots. I push to 1600 and get good results. I fell in love with RF, the R3a is a very good performer not just as a start-up but for long term usage as well as a hobbyist. However, I still want to use a meterless body that will outlast my lifetime and of course the form and function that I really wanted. Honestly, I was already looking at some Leica Ms like the M2 and even the M6 TTL. I have researched for quite some time about the diffeent M models and what I gathered is that the later production M2/M3 SS if you can find a newly CLA'd unit will be the best meterless all mechanical in the Leica range. Of course the MP is the best undeniably. Then came the ZI, if not for those quality issues that I kept on seeing in the net, I would have bought one mainly because of the perceived / proven VF quality (long EBL)and a very handsome camera IMO. I am in the Philippines and repairs of these RFs will be very difficult that's why I want something that can be used out of the box without worrying on RF alignments, focusing issues, etc. for a long time.

[COLOR=#ffffff]Now back to my original topic, there are a few questions I would like to ask from the actual users of the camera and I would appreciate an elaborate comment if necessary. My apologies, I am a newbie RF user and may not be familiar with some RF technical terms.

1. How is the contrast of the RF patch? Is it usable in most lighting situations? Does it flare much?

2. What would be the closest focusing distance that does not require an accurate paralax correction? I understand the S3 does not have floating framelines but are etched on the VF.

3. Is the focusing a split image or overlapping image?

4. At what aperture does diffraction of the lens start? I would stop down to f/16 on very bright days.

5. How do you use circular polarizers if you can?

6. Wide open performance any good? What is the sweet spot?

7. How is the contrast? I use mostly B&W.

8. How is the paint done on black S3? I understand it is not sprayed on so may be longer lasting than the L black chrome I suppose.

9. Are the top and bottom brass?

OMG, sorry I have so many questions. I really have to understand before I make a major purchase. I will still retain my CV set for those times that I need AE. Thanks so much in advance.

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[COLOR=white]Oh btw, in your usage, which would you find easier to focus, the M2/M3 or the S3 2000? As I have mentioned I am a Nikon user and quite familiar with the focus of those cameras; FM2n, FM3a, F2AS and F3HP. Well my 50 year old eyes are not that good now so focusing is a big issue. Thanks again.[/COLOR]
 
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There is one in the classifieds now - a REALLY beautiful one from one of RFFs excellent sellers. If I had the money and wasn't saving for a japanese trip next year I'd buy it right now. They are in my opinion one of the most beautiful cameras ever made. Go get it!
 
Hello Gil.

I think you asked in the right place, you will get many answers to your (many) questions, I would not dare to say much as there are other experienced people in this forum. You can also check the classic camera profiles in cameraquest.com, a wealth of information there.

I own a S3 2000 and I love it, but I wouldn't say it's a camera for everyone, not even for every rangefinder shooter. From an objective viewpoint, it is an old-fashioned camera which does not benefit of many modern developments which you can find even in other RF cameras. For instance loading film is archaic, lenses rotate as you focus, no rangefinder parallax, limited closest focusing distance, etc. This is not a problem for me, indeed it's part of the fun, but you must be aware of what you buy.

The viewfinder could be an issue for you, the ideal would be that you test one before buying. It is very clear (among other things because it's direct view, there is no parallax mechanism), but tends to flare. The focusing patch is by overlapping image. Many people find it harder to focus than a Leica, but others say just the opposite.

The millennium 5cm lens that comes with the kit is a killing lens from wide open. It would be pretty hard to use a polariser with it, first because it is always hard to use them with rangefinder cameras, but also because the lens' front element rotates as you focus. I've seen somewhere an accessory, a sort of external viewfinder with a polariser integrated, to help in finding the position of the filter. I'll see if I can find a reference.

As said I'm sure you will get more complete answers from other people here.

Arturo
 
As you can see by my avatar I own an S3 2000 and do love it..... but Arturo is right its not for everyone and is very old fashioned. From a purely functional standpoint my M6 classic is easier to use in almost all circumstances.

However, except for my Barnack Leicas, I feel its the most beautiful machine ever made for photography.

Good Luck and welcome to the dark side.

Ray
 
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fdigital said:
There is one in the classifieds now - a REALLY beautiful one from one of RFFs excellent sellers. If I had the money and wasn't saving for a japanese trip next year I'd buy it right now. They are in my opinion one of the most beautiful cameras ever made. Go get it!
Click to expand...

Yes I know the seller from another forum where I am also a member. He's a well respected knowledgeable person. I happened to exchange some PMs with him already and always very accomodating.
 
Thanks Arturo and Ray for the insights. yes I have seen almost all available information in the net including that of cameraquest but I'm not looking for description and history but rather actual user information. I understand the S3 Y2K is a no frills camera I can live with that. My biggest concern is the focusing, RF patch contrast and paralax. Btw, I was very impressed, I posted before I went home from my office and when I arrive, I got some replies already. Thanks again......
 
I am sorry I didn't address any of the other questions. I will leave those to more capable posters like Tom A.
He tends to use his more than the rest of us combined!

3. Is the focusing a split image or overlapping image?
Click to expand...

Overlapping of course.

Kiu
 
NIKON KIU said:
I am sorry I didn't address any of the other questions. I will leave those to more capable posters like Tom A.
He tends to use his more than the rest of us combined!



Overlapping of course.

Kiu
Click to expand...

That's ok Kiu, any info is most welcome. I need to get a better understanding as I will be using and not collecting. I do hope Tom A. will have the time to see this thread and share his valuable experience using this camera. Everytime I close applications in my Mac I can't turn it off because my wallpaper are 3 Nikon RF ....I kept staring at them.
 
About the lack of parallax correction and accurate framing: in my experience this is not an issue for lenses 50mm and wider (meaning not much worse than any other RF camera, it is not like framing with a SLR). From 3mts to infinity I ignore the framing error, I make a small parallax correction for distances shorter than 3 mts. The viewfinder has some marks for this purpose. However for longer lenses, like a 105mm, I find the lack of parallax is an issue and I get sometimes pictures with completely different framing from what I intended.

The viewfinder has frames for 105, 50 and 35 lenses, plus correction marks for parallax. It has x1 magnification, I find it ideal to shoot with 50mm lenses. It works with 35 lenses but you can not cover all the viewfield at a glance, you must move the eye to cover all the frame.
I find the S3 2000 viewfinder brighter than the SP 2005 or any other SP viewfinder, the brightness of the patch is another issue.

Arturo
 
Arturo, I intend to use only the 50 1.4 with this body. I love that FOV. The R3a has a bright finder as well and difficult to see the 40 mm frameline but I easily got used to it. if ever I do use a 35 I guess that won't be too much of an issue. nice info on the 3 m negligible paralax correction on the 50. Anyway, for telephoto, I will use my SLRs for that purpose. Glad to know the VF is bright but what about the patch? Does it easily wash out? And lowlight focusing?
 
I've used an S3 2000 for almost 3 years & I would concur w/arturo's post below. I was not an RF newbie when I got mine, so there were few surprises.

As far as the all-important RF/VF topic, I would rate the S3 2000's as middling, somewhere between a really old-fashioned combined RF/VF, like a Contax II, & the Leica M series & its derivatives, which are still the kings in this department IMHO. The S3 2000's RF/VF is more like a well-preserved Canon P. The VF itself is very bright as it's not tinted (& does flare occasionally), but this has the downside of not providing any contrast to the RF patch; it doesn't flare much, but the edges can be difficult to see compared to a true split-image/superimposed patch like a Leica M (or your Bessa). The RF patch is about as bright as the VF, which is why the edges can be difficult to see; I will say that in super low-light conditions this will be a disadvantage compared to your Bessa or a Leica M (you might have to "twiddle" the lens to see the secondary image move to locate the patch). The etched framelines aren't perfect, but they work & I haven't experienced any unusual parallax issues, though I rarely use the S3 w/anything over 50mm (I find the S3 a perfect match for a 35mm & usually use an SP for longer lenses).

As you probably know, the body is very similar to the original Nikon F, so if you're fan of those cameras, you'll probably like the S3 2000. I personally find the film advance lever to be a little too thin & lightweight to be ideal & wish the shutter release wasn't located so far back, but, again, the bottom line is that it works.

Re: the lens, arturo is spot-on: it is 1 of the best 50mm's, period. I have no idea about diffraction, as I rarely use apertures smaller than f/8. Wide-open performance is great & contrast is high like most modern lenses. Ergonomically, my only real complaint w/the lens is that the aperture click-stops are a little too loose for my taste. It's not a problem for those use the focus wheel a lot (I rarely do), but I will occasionally make an inadvertent aperture change while focusing. As a Nikon SLR user, you will not have any problems w/the Contax-style focus direction (opposite of Leica).

I have no experience w/the black paint version, but if it's anything like the SP 2005, it is of very high quality, fully comparable to the black paint Leicas I've seen/handled.

arturo said:
Hello Gil.

I think you asked in the right place, you will get many answers to your (many) questions, I would not dare to say much as there are other experienced people in this forum. You can also check the classic camera profiles in cameraquest.com, a wealth of information there.

I own a S3 2000 and I love it, but I wouldn't say it's a camera for everyone, not even for every rangefinder shooter. From an objective viewpoint, it is an old-fashioned camera which does not benefit of many modern developments which you can find even in other RF cameras. For instance loading film is archaic, lenses rotate as you focus, no rangefinder parallax, limited closest focusing distance, etc. This is not a problem for me, indeed it's part of the fun, but you must be aware of what you buy.

The viewfinder could be an issue for you, the ideal would be that you test one before buying. It is very clear (among other things because it's direct view, there is no parallax mechanism), but tends to flare. The focusing patch is by overlapping image. Many people find it harder to focus than a Leica, but others say just the opposite.

The millennium 5cm lens that comes with the kit is a killing lens from wide open. It would be pretty hard to use a polariser with it, first because it is always hard to use them with rangefinder cameras, but also because the lens' front element rotates as you focus. I've seen somewhere an accessory, a sort of external viewfinder with a polariser integrated, to help in finding the position of the filter. I'll see if I can find a reference.

As said I'm sure you will get more complete answers from other people here.

Arturo
Click to expand...
 
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The S3 is a bit of a "jewel" like camera, particulary in black paint! I am a confirmed M- user for 50+ years, but the Nikon RF has seduced me and I now have a quite a few of them!
The rangefinder patch (overlapping images as stated) is not as "easy" to use as that on a M2/M3. Edges are less defined than on the Leica. The triple frame line set-up is a bit aggravating. There is a lot of lines in that finder! If you are using the 50 as your primary lens it is OK, but the 35 frames are difficult to see in one go.
This said, after a while the S3 is a easy to use. The long throw of the focussing makes it easy to pinpoint focus, though going from near to far takes a bit of "cranking". I have two Millenium's, one black and one chrome - the black one is the smoothest camera I have ever used. Silky smooth focus, almost inaudible shutter release! The finish is good enough to have withstood some heavy use - some edge brassing is showing and a couple of dings - but it is a camera and it is supposed to be used!
Living in a hot climate, you might want to consider a chrome body. Black bodies "absorb" heat and can get surprisingly hot (not good for film or lubricants in the camera). Reliability with the Nikons is very good. I find even with heavy use the rangefinders stay in alignment and shutter speeds stay were they are supposed to be!
One problem with the Nikon's is the limited availability of lenses - for the Leica M series there are 100 000's of lenses out there and this gives a bigger choice (and price selection). The Nikkor's are less frequent out-side of the basic 50f1.4 or 50f2. If you are only going to be shooting with a 50mm, no problem - but if you want wider or longer - choices are more limited. The Millenium 50f1.4 is one of the best 50's around, rivals the 50f1,4 Aspherical from Leica. Close focus on the Nikkor is of course limited to the helicoil in the camera - but I have not found anything to complain about with it. As for diffraction at f11 and f16 - any lens will have it fully stopped down, but what there is in the Nikkor 50 is si insignificant that it doesn't really matter.
The matter of setting the aperture is simple to solve. I firmly plant my finger on the focussing wheel and "lock" the lens at the distance I am shooting and change aperture after that. Works with the 50 and longer - however, the 35 and wider are a different animal. You have to "flip" the lens towards you and peer down into the lens and try to read very small engraved numbers! The 35f1.8 is the exception to the rule - it has a "proper" aperture ring.
To me it sounds like the S3 Nikon is the way you want to go! My advice is to go for it and spend some time (and lots of film) getting to know it.You will not be disppointed with the results - the 50 is stunning and the camera is heavily addictive. Consider a 105f2.5 too - a deservedly legendary lens and then with the addition of a 35f1.8 (expensive) or a 35f2.5 (much more reasonably priced and very sharp. OK, so it has the "internal" type aperture control - you get used to it).
If you are planning to expand the system to wider lenses (25/28/21) start picking up the VC lenses in this focal length as they are a/ better than the older Nikkor's (less flare/better coating) and b/cheaper - at least for the moment.
Of course. you will require another body at sometime - maybe a S2 for the 50 and then a SP for the 28 etc. You have been warned - there really is no such thing as a "one body - one lens kit" for Nikon Rf's. It is a heavily contagious decease - no known cure!
 
I have the 85mm CV Nikon mount lens and i have had very little issue with using the frame lines etched on the finder. All the commentary aside and its all excellent! this is a camera to love and as such the quirks are forgiven and adored. Oh and the 1.4, 50mm lens is the best, I use it on my S3 and my Bessa R2s.

Ray
 
Oh great I highly appreciate the information given. These are the things I can't see in the web searches I looked at. Thanks FurCafe and Tom A for an in depth insight on what I really needed to know.

What worries me now is the RF patch, camera operation is not a big issue as I havve used mechanicl SLRs and medium format (RB67) which are more difficult to handle. I saw some information here earlier but forgot where to search, it mentioned that by installing a blue Lee gel filter, the contrast will improve a lot. Are there any instructions I can get on how to do this? Any special tools needed? I'll have my technician do it but I have to get a guided instruction as he is not experienced in RFs but very good at reparing SLRs (Nikon). having the patch at almost the same brightness as the VF will be very very difficult for me to align properly. I need to see the edges well. The RF patch of the R3a is ok but I do have problems at times and I have to move my eyes frequently to get the patch in line.

No doubt Tom, I am drawn to the Nikons. I have never used any camera outside of Nikon except on compact P&S where Canon IMO is the king and also MFs with Mamiya and Hassy. I have the G9 and Fuji F31 which might be sold and replaced by the DLux 4 soon.

Thanks again for the tons of inforrmation I got from this thread.
 
Hi Gil, this has turned out to be a great thread. A wealth of information on the S3 2000 here. Here's how I'd answer your questions. Cheers, Jon

1. How is the contrast of the RF patch? Is it usable in most lighting situations? Does it flare much?

As others have mentioned, its perfectly usable but not up to the level of a good Leica finder. I'm very interested to hear how others have improved the contrast of the focus patch using filters too.

2. What would be the closest focusing distance that does not require an accurate paralax correction? I understand the S3 does not have floating framelines but are etched on the VF.

Probably a minimum of 2.5 metres or so before you need to think about parallex correction. I suggest trying this - focus your R2A from 2.5 metres to infinity, and then 0.9 to 2.5 metres while keeping an eye on how much the framelines move. You should notice that the framelines don't move much from 2.5 metres to infinity, but do move a lot from 0.9 to 2.5 metres, with most of the movement being from 0.9 metres to 2 metres or so. The distances where the movement is greatest are the distances you need to think about for parallex correction.

3. Is the focusing a split image or overlapping image?

Overlapping image only.

4. At what aperture does diffraction of the lens start? I would stop down to f/16 on very bright days.

The Millennium Nikkor-S 50/1.4 seems to work great from f1.4 all the way down to f16. RFF member jsuominen has some shots taken at f11 to f16 with this lens in one of the thread here (sorry, I forgot which one) and the photos look great!

5. How do you use circular polarizers if you can?

It's a hassle to use a circular polarizer on any rangefinder. You'll need a circular polarizer with alignment marks on the rim, and a circular polarizer finder with the same alignment marks.
First you look through the circular polarizer finder and adjust to the required setting, then check the alignment mark positions, and then adjust the circular polarizer on the lens so that the alignment marks match. The fact that Nikon RF lenses rotates adds another level of complexity. Not recommended.

6. Wide open performance any good? What is the sweet spot?

Wide open performance is excellent. It's an incredible lens, and IMO it's the quality of the lens that makes "making do" with the S3 finder/focus patch worthwhile. I would say the sweet spot is f2 to about f4 or so. The lens is an outstanding performer at these apertures.

7. How is the contrast? I use mostly B&W.

I'll leave this one to the the B&W shooters like Tom A, Jari (jsuominen) etc.

8. How is the paint done on black S3? I understand it is not sprayed on so may be longer lasting than the L black chrome I suppose.

I'm not exactly sure how the camera is painted, but the paint is very durable. I've scratched my SP 2005 a few times and have been surprised at how resistant the paint is to being marked. I've cleaned the "scratches" right off a few times.

9. Are the top and bottom brass?

Yes

Hope that helps 🙂
 
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