Kiev frame spacing---is the 4AM better in this respect?

SCOTFORTHLAD

SCOTFORTHLAD

Slow learner,but keen!
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I've recently experienced, for the first time with a Kiev, a few overlapping frames at the end of a film (in a Kiev 4) which from reading other posts here is not an uncommon problem.
The take-up spool on this and the other Kievs, is removable and generally seems to be much looser fitting on the spindle than those on the Feds and Zorkis, and I wonder if this may contribute to the problem?
As a follow up,in the experience of other users are the later Kiev 4M and 4AM models which have fixed spools, less prone to overlapping frames?
 
Dear Scotforthlad,
I have a Kiev 4 (made in 1973, from its code), and I experienced thesame problem with the first rolls. Then I discovered that the take-up spool was not slipping. In fact it is pulled by a "fork" engaged with the winding mechanism: this fork is fixed by a screw + washer. I disassembled the fork + washer, cleaned them and put some fine grease on them: they work like a clutch, and you can check that - when the screw is tightened - the fork can slip on its axle. I hope it helps you, do not hesitate to ask further details.
Enjoy your Kiev, a great camera indeed!
 
Have both: The $ AM overlaps, whereas the 4 has negatives witout spacing who do not overlap....seems to me a common problem of Kievs per se.
 
This has come up quite a few times in different threads and frame spacing is certainly a problem with some Kievs. Mauro has the solution that's worked for me on 3 different cameras that all had very wide spacing at the start of a film and very tight spacing later on. There's a bit of trial and error involved in getting the tension right on the screw that holds the fork but nothing that an old film, pencil, screwdriver and patience can't sort out!
 
Its usually the later ones which tend to suffer from uneven frame spacing. My Kiev-4aM, when it was still around, was very dismal in this respect (well it was dismal, period).

Mauro's repair method works. I've done the same thing on several 70s era Kiev which had frame spacing problems. Tightening the takeup fork will cure the spacing problem. This is the only true solution which I believe truly works- forget about those esoteric advice which involve rituals like backwinding the rewind knob or the like.

However, when the takeup screw is removed, there may be some difficulty in putting it back. The best way so far is to have the shutter assembly removed so that some force can be applied on the opposite end of the fork (a flat gear really) so that the fork end can be screwed on properly with the spring and washers in between.
 
ZorkiKat said:
Mauro's repair method works. I've done the same thing on several 70s era Kiev which had frame spacing problems. Tightening the takeup fork will cure the spacing problem. This is the only true solution which I believe truly works- forget about those esoteric advice which involve rituals like backwinding the rewind knob or the like.
Click to expand...

I believe that uneven frame spacing and the overlapping frames may not be the same problem.
For overlapping frames, where advice is given to concentrate on the clutch of the take up spool, I have an uneasy feeling that it may not be so.

My problem accepting that is that, on my Kievs (now sold) the sprocket was truly geared to the wind knob, there was no way that it would disengage intermittently. So, if the cluch is not taking up the film correctly, wouldn't you have some damage or creases on the film where the frames overlapped and the sprocket rotated without the film following it?

Has anyone associated sprocket hole damage with overlapping frames?



Dave....
 
SCOTFORTHLAD said:
I've recently experienced, for the first time with a Kiev, a few overlapping frames at the end of a film (in a Kiev 4) which from reading other posts here is not an uncommon problem.
The take-up spool on this and the other Kievs, is removable and generally seems to be much looser fitting on the spindle than those on the Feds and Zorkis, and I wonder if this may contribute to the problem?
As a follow up,in the experience of other users are the later Kiev 4M and 4AM models which have fixed spools, less prone to overlapping frames?
Click to expand...

Hi SCOTFORTHLAD,

In my experience there are several factors that MAY cause unevern spacing. The first in my opinion is a weakness it the very Contax design in this specific area. But this is a retrospective view. I am in no position to speak as an historian looking from before the war towards the future, in terms of technical advances and potentials.

Now, in my opinion (and I actually use and prefer the 4AM model after some home reforms) the 4AM has no advantage at all in this respect - as the fixed spool is of no help for frame spacing.

This is because after you have solved all intermediate issues related to frame spacing, then you arrive to the final one and it is the level of pressure the fork is adjusted to. I may say that this level should be higher than what we may think by instinct.

The Kiev 4AM fixed spool is, like in all previous models, rotated via a fork which by its turn gets its stream from the same gears as in previous models, with the exceptions related to the different external big winding knob,

The intermediate problems are the following:

aa) The camera gears should be decently clean and lubricated.

a) The re-winding knob must rotate free without film. This should be achieved either by cleaning and greasing, or by changing the spring of the rewind fork into a softer one, or both - the most common case. If the re-wind knob doesn't turn free, it will putting resistance when winding and advancing frames to expose.

b) The loading of film should be done with great accuracy, taking care that before closing the back, the film within the camera is under tension. The film holes should match the sprocket teeth.

c) The sprocket teeth must be "young" and able to catch the film

d) The back pressure plate of the film should push the film as any plate of any camera should. Take care yours is not tyred. If it is, alter the ends of the pressure plate with a thin end plier so that the plate will stand farther from the back and thus apply more force on the film. But do it only if you notice the plate is tyred.

d) all what is above the winding fork should be clean and greased.

e) Finally we arrive to one of the most important issues, very often hidden from our knowledge. The winding fork is engaged to the camera gears by a screw in its center. Yet between the screw and the fork there is a semi-rectangular disc (washer) to ensure that once the screw is tigthened -the fork will move both directions without changing the screw position, i,e, without unscrewing the screw.

Being aware of this detail is like looking from afair at the mountain we are to climb. Which is always better than start climbing with no idea of what. And let's pay great attention to the following.

In the female side of the fork, where both the disk and the screw will be placed, there is a slight depression of the same shape as the semi rectangular disk. This is to prevent the disk to move (if the disk moves, the screw will move with it)

But since you will be screwing the screw at high pressure, to overcome the resistance put by the other washers and the strong spring above the fork, most of the chances are that when tightening the screw you will rotate the disk out of place - making the whole operation unusefull.

Even worse, you will have to turn a lot both directions the fork in order to know if the disk is in place or not. This is because our famous screw may show us he is not changing position as if the disk was in position - but in fact it is a temporary feature due to the pressure and with one or two films the frame spaces will start to deteriorate.

So what to do? First, don't loose patience. With a measure of exercise you will start "feeling" by tact that you are screwing the fork with the disk in place.

e) After the disk is in place you may start taking pictures. According to the frame spacing you will see, you will start slightly adjusting the pressure to reduce or distance spaces between frames. This stage I have called the final one. I bet you will have to tighten.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
I have found bad spaceing has always been a result of incorrect tension on the takeup driving yoke. I use an old film and pencil to mark the film then adjust the tension. I believe Contax had a tool to adjust the torque on the screw to set this.
Be carefull if the screw and yoke are completely removed for cleaning there is a rectangular end on the shaft and washer, very hard to align on replacement as the tension spring wants to prevent the alignment.
Attached images may explain it better than me..
 

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Thank you Acheyj

I will use the third pic to further illustrate my previous post. On the thir pic you see from left the spring, the shaft and below it the semirectangular disk (washer), and other parts further to the right, incl the fork.

The drama is that when you re-position all parts, only a minimal part of the shaft end will be left for the disk to attach (and then the screw) . Note the end is rectangular like the internal shape of the disk. This minimal free end left to match the disk is both a required precondition and a hardship to lever at the same time.

Once the disk is properly matching and the screw inserted with pressure, you will have some good free leverage on the general pressure via further screwing or unscrewing, and you should not be extremely afraid of taking advantage of this. The hardship is on achieving the match of disk and shaft end with the screw under pressure.

Cheers,
Ruben

PS
Notice that the specific disk shown above has two protrusions. These should be either grease or dirt, but the disk must be polish flat.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ahaa ! Ruben.
I hoped you would follow up and explain in detail, you do it better than me !. I am trying to design a simple tool to compress the spring via the yoke so engagement of the rectangular hole with the washer can be made easier.
I am pleased to give a little back for all the help I have had from this forum in comming to terms with the Kiev/Contax. Must put some images up one day of my gear and its results.
See my other post re the take up yoke, maybe of some small assistance to somebody.
Cheers all
Ronald K. Johnson

ron
 
That is grease on the washer Ruben, when clean the washer is flat as you say, didnt have time to clean stuff, its from my spare parts box.
ron
 
Dave Wilkinson said:
Brian....where have you been?....surely it's been too wet for gardening? :D
Click to expand...

How do Dave,:)
All well down here in the South West thanks,still alive and kicking.
The rain runs off the decking in the direction that I planned as well:D
Although I don't know if I will be able to cope with the GAS situation without the garden to distract me.
 
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