Turtle
Veteran
As an owner of both the Mamiya 7 II and Bronica RF645, I thought I would write a summary piece on both cameras. After owning the Mamiya 7 for about 7 weeks and using the RF645 over about 3 years, it has become very clear that the two are very different cameras. This is a relief, as I bought the Mamiya 7 for very specific reasons, which I will comment on later. These are my views based on using the two cameras to conduct travel, street and scenic photography.
Controls/Ergonomics: I find the controls of the Bronica fall slightly better to my hands, but realise this is a personal view. This was obvious from the first time I picked them both up, the RF645 feeling as if I had used it for years within minutes. The Mamiya feels fine, but the swollen area around the lens mount is a bit too close to the grip meaning my fingers get kinda wedged in this gap and that feels a touch unnatural to me. The exposure compensation lever on the RF645 is far quicker to use. With the M7 it is fiddlier and less intuitive (and also feels less than positive at times). Some complain that the RF645 lever is easily knocked, but mine are relatively stiff and do not get moved by accident - perhaps there is sample variation here, just like with aperture rings! This RF645 lever can be moved more easily with the camere gripped in the right hand, whereas the M7 is more of a fiddly experience. Still, the M7 seems to produce good exposures (monochrome) despite the very small area covered by the meter. I am used to using a spot meter for LF and so pretty instinctively hone in on the values I am interested in. The meter is not bad, just simple (see later). I also find the film speed setting dial cleaner and more obvious on the RF645. You press a release button and then turn the dedicated dial - It is also easier to see at a glance. With the M7 you have to mess about with the shutter dial surround which is already involved with shutter speed and compensation. To me, this is a far messier solution to a simple problem.
Viewfinders: The viewfinders on both are excellent. Both are bright enough and with sufficient contrast. I prefer that of the M7 for angle of view as I can use the 65 with frame lines. With the Rf645, I can use the 65 (narrower angle of view on the smaller neg of course) but the 45 needs the accessory finder. I prefer the shutter speed display etc of the RF645, which I feel is easier to see. The M7 display and over/under exposure indicators seem crude in comparison and for me were easier to miss when, for example, the aperture selected in AE mode requires a shutter speed greater than 1/500th max. The Bronica also shows more by way of partial stops. The RF645 finder is vertical, but this is not an issue for me when using the camera alone. As I began to use a Leica M more and more I found I wanted the same orientation as I would be carrying both together a lot of the time (Leica out and ready, MF RF in bag). In this regard the Mamiya 7’s horizontal finder is preferable. When used alone it takes all of 3 seconds to readjust to the RF645 vertical finder.
Metering: The RF645 has a more area based system and is very accurate in my view (I know some disagree here). I have not once had had wayward exposures with mine, but then again I don’t use slide film much. The M7 metering seems concentrated pretty well smack where my rangefinder patch is and more akin to a partial spot. Seems accurate enough for mono as long as I make sure I am not pointing that spot towards anything too bright. In this regard it can be used to take more localised readings and build up more of an idea of brightness range etc. However, for speed, the more comprehensive metering on the RF645 is arguably better. It seems to be more centre weighted or averaged than the Mamiya. I also dislike the fact that the Mamiya 7 wides only have full stops, no half stop detents. This is frankly shameful as combined with the metering it denies you vital information and control. It might be the case that in AE or AEL the shutter still fires in partial steps (I am not sure, but recall hearing that it does) but the perceived loss of control (along with relatively spartan viewfinder info) is not comforting. I shot some snap portraits with trannie film (first time in years) a few days back and I felt I had no idea what was really going on with the meter readings showing as blinking and static whole stop readings.
Optical performance/Neg Quality: The optics on both are superb (I own the 65 and 45 for the RF645 and 50, 65, 80, 150 on the M7). With the RF645, the 65 and 45 both perform flawlessly producing great resolution and ample contrast from wide open. At a stop or two down they are blinding. The M7 does similarly, although with more contrast and in my reluctant opinion a little more resolution. I printed my friends M7 negs years ago and was hugely impressed, but looking at shots on a light box with a 8X lupe I am simply staggered. Corner resolution suffers a little wide open on the 65mm but on centre is mind boggling. I am tempted to test these optics against my Leica/Zeiss lenses because I am very confident that these Mamiya optics will hold their own even when comparing a 35mm section from the 6x7 neg. The 50 and 80 are similarly sharp, although I have found the 65 to my perfect standard lens for scenic/travel type walking about. I have tested my 150mm on near and far objects and am pleased to discover that the focus is smack on; it is also incredibly sharp. It is not always easy to get accurate focus on distant subjects (that are just short of the cameras infinity) wide open. One has to be careful to use the focus setting indicated by the rangefinder rather than just assume the subject is at infinity. I can tell you that a subject of about 1km is not infinity and needs to be focused just shy of infinity. 2-3km is more like infinity as far as this set up goes. When shooting at something far away, such as a mountain line 2+ miles away, focusing at infinity is important as the converse became true. Great care is required to get this right as the subject details are often very small. I doubt that anything issues would be visible at f8+ however, even if less than total care was applied. No doubt about it though, care is required at F4.5. Closer subjects were in sharp focus without too much trouble however as it was easier to see the focus error when not correctly focused – subjects were bigger and this made focus easier.
‘Useability’
The M7 is Bigger. It is longer from nose to tail and feels it. Lens changes are far slower by virtue of the manual light curtain having to be closed and then opened. The rear sections of the lenses are sometimes tricky to navigate home without catching it on delicate rangefinder coupling etc. Not a problem when you have neatly laid your kit bag down on a grassy hill in the UK, but a pain in the ass when you are juggling lenses and filters in a dusty environment like Afghanistan. I also find changing film far faster with the RF645. I just find it harder to pick out the spools on the Mamiya 7. This is noticeable. The Mamiya sometimes wont advance in partial strokes when advancing newly loaded new film to the start line. This is a pig as winding the lever all the way when balancing the open camera on knees/belly bag etc is not always easy. As I found out yesterday, when shooting some portraits and scenic shots in Kabul, these ‘little things’ do add up, making the RF645 a LOT faster to use when considering the complete cycle: Film loading, removal, exposure compensation, metering, filter changes (exposure compensation again), more frequent film reloading required (10 vs 16 frames), light curtain winding and release etc. This is not as a result of familiarity, but due to the RF645 having a lot of small kinks ironed out making for fewer interruptions and less concentration required not to get snagged up.
Both produce stunning negs, but in addition to the larger neg, my lupe may be showing me slightly more resolution from the M7. Its rather unimportant, however, as both are incredibly sharp, full stop and from wide open. The M7 lenses produce slightly more contrast which may or may not be to your taste, but resolution is absolutely staggering. In the kit bag, the RF645 lenses take up much less space, which might also be a consideration. They are also lighter.
The shutter noise is extremely low on the Mamiya 7 and very low on the Bronica. The RF645 has a weird ‘sneeze/meow’ as the shutter fires and re-cocks. Although unusual, I quite like this strangely relaxing sound! It is very quiet overall and probably still quieter than a Leica M. The feel is very different on both. The RF645 has a cleaner and slightly stiffer break, but the M7 is wonderfully light for those low shutter speed shots when you need to squeeze out the last drop of stability. Both offer great predictability, but I would argue that with very cold hands or when involved in ‘action’ the M7 might prove too light. The RF645 release cannot be faulted in my view. Its amongst the best I have experienced.
Build Quality: The RF645 feels much more solidly built than the Mamiya in my view, although this is not to say that this is the case in use. The twist lever for closing the light shield on the M7 is decidedly flimsy, but this may be deliberate and in order to prevent cracking under load. The shell of the Bronica feels less ‘plasticky’, although the rear control panel is more akin to the Mamiya 7 feel. Both have equally well constructed lenses and similarly smooth, well damped focus throws. In the hand, however, the Bronnie just feels more solid to me and although that has limited practical value, it is nevertheless quite noticeable and satisfying.
Conclusion: Choosing between these two camera does not simply come down to format choices. I wont waffle on about system availability etc, but utility instead. In my view, the RF645 is a far more accomplished camera overall. From what I have read, I thought this might be the case and bought the Mamiya 7II because I wanted the biggest neg I could get to compliment carrying my Leica M. The RF645 is somewhere in between when it comes to speed and ease of handling, but arguably closer to the Leica than the Mamiya. I wanted the Mamiya for the best quality 400 speed film handheld and the best quality prints from 100 or below on a tripod. This it delivers very nicely. However, as the pace picks up, cameras come on and off tripods (with an ordinary QR adaptor film cannot be changed on the Mamiya 7 as the little spool release lugs cannot pop out), lenses and filters, films etc are changed the Mamiya finds itself outclassed in every respect by the RF645. Would I recommend the Mamiya 7 as your only walk about camera? No. The RF645 whips it in terms of speed and ergonomics in my view. However, the limited lens range is an issue and was one of the reasons I went for the Mamiya 7. I found myself wanting wider than 45mm on 645 and a short tele. The RF645 does not offer anything wider than 45mm and getting a 100 or 135 is like tracking down a unicorn. Where the Mamiya scores for me is also in the 65mm frame lines. This allows me to walk about with one single lens that I would use for 75% of shots. With the RF645 I use the 65 and 45 about 60-40 and so there is more swapping. It is a heck of a lot quicker to do so though.
In summary, the RF645 is the camera I would walk about with if I wanted to keep things simple at the same time as having the larger neg. In other words it is a good replacement for a Leica M under circumstances where you might want the larger real estate and will be shooting in the 35mm equiv range of 28-43mm. It is therefore fine for street work where I personally rarely use anything longer than std. The Mamiya 7 is the better camera for when you want maximum system flexibility (lenses) and ultimate print quality, but head to head with the RF645 in a ‘walkabout scenario’ it is a far less ‘useable’ camera in my view. The result of this is that I might end up keeping my RF645 with 65 and 45 and selling one body with 65. This will allow the best of both words. I would, however, say this: anyone with a RF645 and thinking of trading up to a Mamiya 7 for street/walkabout work, think again. You might find yourself hugely disappointed. For those doing ‘posh travel’ where shots are more ‘scenic’ slower paced or where their work is under more controlled circumstances, the Mamiya 7II’s deficiencies will be less of a nuisance and you will be able to enjoy those whopping negs to the full.
As I say, these are my view and not gospel. Your experiences might vary! I have however used both under difficult circumstances and the differences became fairly glaring! Both wonderful, but different. Having just picked up my RF645 after not being used in several months, I am reminded of just how good its handling really is.
Controls/Ergonomics: I find the controls of the Bronica fall slightly better to my hands, but realise this is a personal view. This was obvious from the first time I picked them both up, the RF645 feeling as if I had used it for years within minutes. The Mamiya feels fine, but the swollen area around the lens mount is a bit too close to the grip meaning my fingers get kinda wedged in this gap and that feels a touch unnatural to me. The exposure compensation lever on the RF645 is far quicker to use. With the M7 it is fiddlier and less intuitive (and also feels less than positive at times). Some complain that the RF645 lever is easily knocked, but mine are relatively stiff and do not get moved by accident - perhaps there is sample variation here, just like with aperture rings! This RF645 lever can be moved more easily with the camere gripped in the right hand, whereas the M7 is more of a fiddly experience. Still, the M7 seems to produce good exposures (monochrome) despite the very small area covered by the meter. I am used to using a spot meter for LF and so pretty instinctively hone in on the values I am interested in. The meter is not bad, just simple (see later). I also find the film speed setting dial cleaner and more obvious on the RF645. You press a release button and then turn the dedicated dial - It is also easier to see at a glance. With the M7 you have to mess about with the shutter dial surround which is already involved with shutter speed and compensation. To me, this is a far messier solution to a simple problem.
Viewfinders: The viewfinders on both are excellent. Both are bright enough and with sufficient contrast. I prefer that of the M7 for angle of view as I can use the 65 with frame lines. With the Rf645, I can use the 65 (narrower angle of view on the smaller neg of course) but the 45 needs the accessory finder. I prefer the shutter speed display etc of the RF645, which I feel is easier to see. The M7 display and over/under exposure indicators seem crude in comparison and for me were easier to miss when, for example, the aperture selected in AE mode requires a shutter speed greater than 1/500th max. The Bronica also shows more by way of partial stops. The RF645 finder is vertical, but this is not an issue for me when using the camera alone. As I began to use a Leica M more and more I found I wanted the same orientation as I would be carrying both together a lot of the time (Leica out and ready, MF RF in bag). In this regard the Mamiya 7’s horizontal finder is preferable. When used alone it takes all of 3 seconds to readjust to the RF645 vertical finder.
Metering: The RF645 has a more area based system and is very accurate in my view (I know some disagree here). I have not once had had wayward exposures with mine, but then again I don’t use slide film much. The M7 metering seems concentrated pretty well smack where my rangefinder patch is and more akin to a partial spot. Seems accurate enough for mono as long as I make sure I am not pointing that spot towards anything too bright. In this regard it can be used to take more localised readings and build up more of an idea of brightness range etc. However, for speed, the more comprehensive metering on the RF645 is arguably better. It seems to be more centre weighted or averaged than the Mamiya. I also dislike the fact that the Mamiya 7 wides only have full stops, no half stop detents. This is frankly shameful as combined with the metering it denies you vital information and control. It might be the case that in AE or AEL the shutter still fires in partial steps (I am not sure, but recall hearing that it does) but the perceived loss of control (along with relatively spartan viewfinder info) is not comforting. I shot some snap portraits with trannie film (first time in years) a few days back and I felt I had no idea what was really going on with the meter readings showing as blinking and static whole stop readings.
Optical performance/Neg Quality: The optics on both are superb (I own the 65 and 45 for the RF645 and 50, 65, 80, 150 on the M7). With the RF645, the 65 and 45 both perform flawlessly producing great resolution and ample contrast from wide open. At a stop or two down they are blinding. The M7 does similarly, although with more contrast and in my reluctant opinion a little more resolution. I printed my friends M7 negs years ago and was hugely impressed, but looking at shots on a light box with a 8X lupe I am simply staggered. Corner resolution suffers a little wide open on the 65mm but on centre is mind boggling. I am tempted to test these optics against my Leica/Zeiss lenses because I am very confident that these Mamiya optics will hold their own even when comparing a 35mm section from the 6x7 neg. The 50 and 80 are similarly sharp, although I have found the 65 to my perfect standard lens for scenic/travel type walking about. I have tested my 150mm on near and far objects and am pleased to discover that the focus is smack on; it is also incredibly sharp. It is not always easy to get accurate focus on distant subjects (that are just short of the cameras infinity) wide open. One has to be careful to use the focus setting indicated by the rangefinder rather than just assume the subject is at infinity. I can tell you that a subject of about 1km is not infinity and needs to be focused just shy of infinity. 2-3km is more like infinity as far as this set up goes. When shooting at something far away, such as a mountain line 2+ miles away, focusing at infinity is important as the converse became true. Great care is required to get this right as the subject details are often very small. I doubt that anything issues would be visible at f8+ however, even if less than total care was applied. No doubt about it though, care is required at F4.5. Closer subjects were in sharp focus without too much trouble however as it was easier to see the focus error when not correctly focused – subjects were bigger and this made focus easier.
‘Useability’
The M7 is Bigger. It is longer from nose to tail and feels it. Lens changes are far slower by virtue of the manual light curtain having to be closed and then opened. The rear sections of the lenses are sometimes tricky to navigate home without catching it on delicate rangefinder coupling etc. Not a problem when you have neatly laid your kit bag down on a grassy hill in the UK, but a pain in the ass when you are juggling lenses and filters in a dusty environment like Afghanistan. I also find changing film far faster with the RF645. I just find it harder to pick out the spools on the Mamiya 7. This is noticeable. The Mamiya sometimes wont advance in partial strokes when advancing newly loaded new film to the start line. This is a pig as winding the lever all the way when balancing the open camera on knees/belly bag etc is not always easy. As I found out yesterday, when shooting some portraits and scenic shots in Kabul, these ‘little things’ do add up, making the RF645 a LOT faster to use when considering the complete cycle: Film loading, removal, exposure compensation, metering, filter changes (exposure compensation again), more frequent film reloading required (10 vs 16 frames), light curtain winding and release etc. This is not as a result of familiarity, but due to the RF645 having a lot of small kinks ironed out making for fewer interruptions and less concentration required not to get snagged up.
Both produce stunning negs, but in addition to the larger neg, my lupe may be showing me slightly more resolution from the M7. Its rather unimportant, however, as both are incredibly sharp, full stop and from wide open. The M7 lenses produce slightly more contrast which may or may not be to your taste, but resolution is absolutely staggering. In the kit bag, the RF645 lenses take up much less space, which might also be a consideration. They are also lighter.
The shutter noise is extremely low on the Mamiya 7 and very low on the Bronica. The RF645 has a weird ‘sneeze/meow’ as the shutter fires and re-cocks. Although unusual, I quite like this strangely relaxing sound! It is very quiet overall and probably still quieter than a Leica M. The feel is very different on both. The RF645 has a cleaner and slightly stiffer break, but the M7 is wonderfully light for those low shutter speed shots when you need to squeeze out the last drop of stability. Both offer great predictability, but I would argue that with very cold hands or when involved in ‘action’ the M7 might prove too light. The RF645 release cannot be faulted in my view. Its amongst the best I have experienced.
Build Quality: The RF645 feels much more solidly built than the Mamiya in my view, although this is not to say that this is the case in use. The twist lever for closing the light shield on the M7 is decidedly flimsy, but this may be deliberate and in order to prevent cracking under load. The shell of the Bronica feels less ‘plasticky’, although the rear control panel is more akin to the Mamiya 7 feel. Both have equally well constructed lenses and similarly smooth, well damped focus throws. In the hand, however, the Bronnie just feels more solid to me and although that has limited practical value, it is nevertheless quite noticeable and satisfying.
Conclusion: Choosing between these two camera does not simply come down to format choices. I wont waffle on about system availability etc, but utility instead. In my view, the RF645 is a far more accomplished camera overall. From what I have read, I thought this might be the case and bought the Mamiya 7II because I wanted the biggest neg I could get to compliment carrying my Leica M. The RF645 is somewhere in between when it comes to speed and ease of handling, but arguably closer to the Leica than the Mamiya. I wanted the Mamiya for the best quality 400 speed film handheld and the best quality prints from 100 or below on a tripod. This it delivers very nicely. However, as the pace picks up, cameras come on and off tripods (with an ordinary QR adaptor film cannot be changed on the Mamiya 7 as the little spool release lugs cannot pop out), lenses and filters, films etc are changed the Mamiya finds itself outclassed in every respect by the RF645. Would I recommend the Mamiya 7 as your only walk about camera? No. The RF645 whips it in terms of speed and ergonomics in my view. However, the limited lens range is an issue and was one of the reasons I went for the Mamiya 7. I found myself wanting wider than 45mm on 645 and a short tele. The RF645 does not offer anything wider than 45mm and getting a 100 or 135 is like tracking down a unicorn. Where the Mamiya scores for me is also in the 65mm frame lines. This allows me to walk about with one single lens that I would use for 75% of shots. With the RF645 I use the 65 and 45 about 60-40 and so there is more swapping. It is a heck of a lot quicker to do so though.
In summary, the RF645 is the camera I would walk about with if I wanted to keep things simple at the same time as having the larger neg. In other words it is a good replacement for a Leica M under circumstances where you might want the larger real estate and will be shooting in the 35mm equiv range of 28-43mm. It is therefore fine for street work where I personally rarely use anything longer than std. The Mamiya 7 is the better camera for when you want maximum system flexibility (lenses) and ultimate print quality, but head to head with the RF645 in a ‘walkabout scenario’ it is a far less ‘useable’ camera in my view. The result of this is that I might end up keeping my RF645 with 65 and 45 and selling one body with 65. This will allow the best of both words. I would, however, say this: anyone with a RF645 and thinking of trading up to a Mamiya 7 for street/walkabout work, think again. You might find yourself hugely disappointed. For those doing ‘posh travel’ where shots are more ‘scenic’ slower paced or where their work is under more controlled circumstances, the Mamiya 7II’s deficiencies will be less of a nuisance and you will be able to enjoy those whopping negs to the full.
As I say, these are my view and not gospel. Your experiences might vary! I have however used both under difficult circumstances and the differences became fairly glaring! Both wonderful, but different. Having just picked up my RF645 after not being used in several months, I am reminded of just how good its handling really is.
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Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Thanks for the in depth comparison. As an RF645 user I have often wondered about the alternatives and after reading what you have written I have to agree that the Bronica is very user friendly. Aside from being a little larger it's not much harder to use than an M Leica for shooting casually. 
tensai
Established
Nice to read your thoughts on these two cameras. I love the ergonomics and the output of the Bronica. One thing; the RF645 has the meter sensor to the side of the view finder, so unless I have a different RF645, there is no ttl?
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Turtle
Veteran
This is true. I think my Leica contaminated my thoughts! Corrections made.
Turtle
Veteran
Can anyone comment on the single f-stop settings with the Mamiya 7 wide angle lenses? Is it the case that partial stops are available thru shutter speeds automatically set in AE and AEL modes? This is not possible manually wihch is a huge pain. Would one have to use AE and then add exposure compensation? This is of course a silly state of affairs with B&W and diabolical with transparency film. Am I missing something? Is there a reason why there are no half stops on the 50mm etc? I cannot see why these were omitted.....
craygc
Well-known
Well I just bought myself a 2nd Mamiya 7II body last week and have the 65mm & 43mm lenses. An SLR MF camera it is not in anyway but a comparable 67 SLR is a monster next to a 645 animal and film real estate counts. I use RRS Arca swiss custom plates to circumvent the QR problem youve mentioned. I often use manual exposure and although everything is in 1 stop clicks you can use any position on the aperture ring in between stops - it works - with a Lee filter system on it I wouldnt trust that the exposure meter wasnt being blocked anyways . Everything is a compromise in photography and there is no way I would carry a similar sized MF SLR so I learn to love and live with the M7II's quirks.
As others have said a well thought through and articulate comparison review, thank you...
. Everything is a compromise in photography and there is no way I would carry a similar sized MF SLR so I learn to love and live with the M7II's quirks.As others have said a well thought through and articulate comparison review, thank you...
mdelevie
Established
I went Broni, haven't regretted it
I went Broni, haven't regretted it
Thanks for the most useful comparo. I too evaluated these two cameras, and as much as I like 6x7, I came away with the Bronica RF645.
Most of my shooting lately is 'landscapery' and I'm really glad I chose the smaller & lighter Bronica. I can carry the essentials with me onto any crazy hike, usually just the 45 and 135 but sometimes I carry all four lenses. The top case of my motorbike is dedicated to photo gear, and in addition to the Bronica with 4 lenses and extra film, I can also fit a Canon dSLR with two good L zooms (24-70 and 70-200). A little carbon fiber tripod goes along on most rides / hikes. The extra weight and size of the Mamiya 7 gear was prohibitive... I'm size-constrained when road-tripping and the weight-constrained when hiking.
When I have a hankering for 6x7 I'll usually bring the Plaubel Makina 670, much more compact but only has the std 80mm focal length. And of course these are all 'baby' formats compared to sheet film in a camera with movements.
(speaking of babies, the motorbike photo below was taken on a diminutive Agfa "Clack" onto Delta 100. It's very soft and low in contrast, so it got some photochoppery. The "Clack" makes my jacket a bit lumpy, but it's fun to watch people react to it )
I went Broni, haven't regretted it
Thanks for the most useful comparo. I too evaluated these two cameras, and as much as I like 6x7, I came away with the Bronica RF645.
Most of my shooting lately is 'landscapery' and I'm really glad I chose the smaller & lighter Bronica. I can carry the essentials with me onto any crazy hike, usually just the 45 and 135 but sometimes I carry all four lenses. The top case of my motorbike is dedicated to photo gear, and in addition to the Bronica with 4 lenses and extra film, I can also fit a Canon dSLR with two good L zooms (24-70 and 70-200). A little carbon fiber tripod goes along on most rides / hikes. The extra weight and size of the Mamiya 7 gear was prohibitive... I'm size-constrained when road-tripping and the weight-constrained when hiking.
When I have a hankering for 6x7 I'll usually bring the Plaubel Makina 670, much more compact but only has the std 80mm focal length. And of course these are all 'baby' formats compared to sheet film in a camera with movements.
(speaking of babies, the motorbike photo below was taken on a diminutive Agfa "Clack" onto Delta 100. It's very soft and low in contrast, so it got some photochoppery. The "Clack" makes my jacket a bit lumpy, but it's fun to watch people react to it
)Attachments
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Cron
Well-known
I also decided for the Bronica because of size, weight and building quality.
I'm very impressed about the picture quality offered wide open
I'm very impressed about the picture quality offered wide open
sircarl
Well-known
Having also owned both cameras, I think Turtle's review is right on. The only point where I'd disagree is on image quality. I think the Mamiya's is noticeably better. But as you can see from my sig, image quality doesn't count for much if you have trouble getting the shot in the first place, and that's why, in the end, I sold the 7II and bought the Bronica. Aside from the vertical finder, which I'm still not crazy about, it's a much faster and more agreeable camera to use.
Turtle
Veteran
Picked up my RF645 after using the Mamiya 7 exclusively to 'gel with me' over the last few months and the superior handling of the Bronica was evident to me in about, erm, a nanosecond.
I have found that with the 645 format's shorter FLs, one has to be careful not to stop down as far as one would with 6x9/7. I use my Bronnie at f16 or wider about 99% of the time and very often about the f11-13 mark, where it was a superb performer, as it was wider open. It falls apart at f22 and f32 with the 45 and 65 IMO and I avoided anything past f16 if I could. The Mamiya lenses are better performers overall I agree, but they are so expensive, bigger and slower to change. The RF645 lenses are darned good, only the mamiya 7 optics are arguably in a league of their own. I am more and more convinced that the 65 is the weakest in purely optical terms, by virtue of not so hot edges wide open, but it is soooo useful as an all rounder that it is still my most used lens, followed by the 50mm. On centre it is sharp as hell wide open and so is still great for environmental portraits. The 50mm is like a razor at all times, as is the 80mm
waileong
Well-known
You can use partial f-stops in m6,I suppose m7 should allow that too.
I don't find speed to be a problem for my m6 simply because I normally have to take time to stop down and adjust for max depth of field.
I don't find speed to be a problem for my m6 simply because I normally have to take time to stop down and adjust for max depth of field.
tron
Established
Thank you for your most in depth hands-on experiences in using both cameras. I have the Fujifilm GA645Zi and a Pentax 67 system.
I mostly do landscape photography and so at times I need tele-lenses, though nothing longer than 300mm (in 6x7 format).
I have always liked the way a RF camera operates and also for mee, weight of the gear counts. That's why I have often wondered the good about switching from Pentax 67 to Mamiya 7II. After reading your insightful comments on the Mamiya 7II, though, I am changing my mind and will stick to the Pentax 67 system.
I have now, however, been tempted to acquire a RF645 set with 45 and 65 lenses. Can anyone tell me whether it is worthwhile since I already have a Fuji RF with a 55-90 range ?
I mostly do landscape photography and so at times I need tele-lenses, though nothing longer than 300mm (in 6x7 format).
I have always liked the way a RF camera operates and also for mee, weight of the gear counts. That's why I have often wondered the good about switching from Pentax 67 to Mamiya 7II. After reading your insightful comments on the Mamiya 7II, though, I am changing my mind and will stick to the Pentax 67 system.
I have now, however, been tempted to acquire a RF645 set with 45 and 65 lenses. Can anyone tell me whether it is worthwhile since I already have a Fuji RF with a 55-90 range ?
sooner
Well-known
Tron, I was just wondering this myself as I take more pictures with the Bronica. I have both the Zi and the RF645, and I had hoped/expected the Bronica to just blow me away with its quality and sharpness, compared to the Zi, which I think is a very good camera in its own right. I haven't really done a serious comparison, but both are very sharp with nice colors. I do much prefer the manual focus of the Bronica, though for travel the Fuji is slightly more compact because it is flatter. Tough call, really. I own the 45mm Zenzanon, and it's not as wide as I expected, either. So my bottom line is that I would only get the Bronica if you get a super good deal. Otherwise, stick with the Fuji and be happy.
tron
Established
Anyone has any idea what the reasonable price for a RF645 with a 65mm lens and a separate 45mm lens ? Thanks.
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tron
Established
Sooner,
Thanks for the advice. I share your appreciation about the Fuji RF. Actually it has accompanied me on virtually every trip I made since its acquisition some years ago. I have always liked its colour and it never failed to produce beautiful pictures. Two things bug me though - I often wonder how it would feel to have a wider end and I am not 100%comfortable with the AF. Also, multiple exposure with the Fuji RF is not as handy.
By the way, anyone using the 100mm or 135mm lenses ? How do you find them in terms of framing ? is it worth the money ? I am asking because it seems having a RF with 45mm and 65mm is a bargain, but when you add the 100mm or 135mm to make a full set, the price is rocket high and there will be alternatives available. Views please ?
Turtle, thanks for the in-depth comparison; I'm surprised I didn't see it earlier. I've used an RF645 for five years, buying the three lenses (incl 100, not 135) new with the body, then added a used second body+65 a year later. This is a really excellent well-designed system, and I only regret they didn't reduce finder magnification slightly to accommodate 45mm framelines. Rather than the top-mounted accessory viewfinder, I just wing it with the whole VF window for 45mm.
I've loved the Pentax 6x7 system for decades and also have a pair of 67II, while the Bronica is far easier to have along at all times, really a great choice for my environmental portraits project. I also like the Fuji GA645Wi (as it has dedicated 45 framelines that not only correct for parallax but field size as well) but with a love/hate relationship with AF, and my 6x7 RF is a Fuji also, the GW670III, a very crude machine compared to either 645.
I've never had any experience with the Mamiya 7, so your commentary was illuminating. Thanks!
PS: Tron, it's hard to justify the 100 or 135 on the basis of their cost, high due primarily to rarity. Then when "rare" is the frequency of use as well! My 100 is a "long normal" lens while the 65 is a "wide normal", and both are indeed useful. I just seem to leave the 100 behind most of the time, though when I do deliberately drag it along it has served excellently (go figure!). There are a lot of RF645 shots in my RFF gallery, including a few with the 100mm. They should appear if you search the gallery...
I've loved the Pentax 6x7 system for decades and also have a pair of 67II, while the Bronica is far easier to have along at all times, really a great choice for my environmental portraits project. I also like the Fuji GA645Wi (as it has dedicated 45 framelines that not only correct for parallax but field size as well) but with a love/hate relationship with AF, and my 6x7 RF is a Fuji also, the GW670III, a very crude machine compared to either 645.
I've never had any experience with the Mamiya 7, so your commentary was illuminating. Thanks!
PS: Tron, it's hard to justify the 100 or 135 on the basis of their cost, high due primarily to rarity. Then when "rare" is the frequency of use as well! My 100 is a "long normal" lens while the 65 is a "wide normal", and both are indeed useful. I just seem to leave the 100 behind most of the time, though when I do deliberately drag it along it has served excellently (go figure!). There are a lot of RF645 shots in my RFF gallery, including a few with the 100mm. They should appear if you search the gallery...
W
Way
Guest
Great comparison! I have and use the Bronica and it is a well designed camera. Very ergonomic, well thought out. I love the quiet shutter (it does have a "wheezy" sound to it). I am awaiting a M7 II kit in the mail, I love using my Mamiya 6 which is very similar to the M7. Really a wonderful 6x6 camera and also has a very quiet shutter. All the cameras mentioned are fantastic for portable medium format shooting. You can't go wrong with any of them - you just need to see which format appeals to you: 645 or 6x7.
Matus
Well-known
Nice thread indeed.
Way, please, once your M7II arrives - could you maybe post a photo or the of the M7II and RF645 side by side? As far as I know the weight difference is not taht large and I am wondering about the size with a lens attached.
I am also considering some MF rangefinder (though waiting impatiently for the new Bessa III) in the next year. I do agree that Bronica should have released a 35mm lens too ...
Way, please, once your M7II arrives - could you maybe post a photo or the of the M7II and RF645 side by side? As far as I know the weight difference is not taht large and I am wondering about the size with a lens attached.
I am also considering some MF rangefinder (though waiting impatiently for the new Bessa III) in the next year. I do agree that Bronica should have released a 35mm lens too ...
Turtle
Veteran
Sadly my M7II and RF645 are now in different countries so I can't post a side by side snap or I would. Until Way posts some shots, the M7 is a bit taller and wider but most noticeably, deeper with a lens attached. This is the real issue. with a 65 or 45 the RF645 is pretty shallow and the mamiya I would say about 1.5-2 inches deeper with comparable FLs. Then you consider that the unmounted RF645 lenses are appreciably smaller (shorter) and a two lens kit has a fair difference in it. It does not really matter that much, but it is there. In terms of walking about on the street, digi SLRs are so big now, that neither look out of place.
W
Way
Guest
Here's some quick pics of the Bronica and Mamiya 6 which, I believe, is pretty close to the size of the M7 II. I think the M7 II will be more like the M6 with the lens extended. One of the great things about the M6 is the retractable lens! I don't have a hood for the Bronica. The M6 shown has the wonderful 50mm lens and the Bronica has the 65mm, also very good.
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