Water spots? Dust?

[jackbaty]

I've recently gotten back into film and although I'm having all sorts of fun, I'm also beginning to remember why I went digital in the first place. Just scanned one of my first few processed rolls and it's a mess. (Tri-X in Diafine.) Example...

I'm not sure how I can handle negatives any more gently than I have been. Ignoring the scratches, are the spots running along about a quarter way up from the bottom caused by water/drying? No amount of brushing or blowing on the strip makes any difference. I may have overdone the Photo flo a bit. Dried them in the shower after running hot water to knock the dust down. Should I be mixing the Photo flo with distilled water? Haven't tried that yet.

If I can't get a clean negative to scan I'm going to start pining for digital, and no one wants that to happen! 🙂

Thanks

 

[Al Kaplan]

One way to assure ultra clean negatives is drying on the reels with filtered air. If money is no object, or you're lucky enough to find as used one, get a Senrac film dryer. You can also build your own. You'll need a foot or so of PVC pipe, a hand held hair dryer (mostly to be used with the heat turned off), some 1/4 inch plywood and some airconditioner filter. I plug it into the Gralab timer that I use to time film development so I can leave the darkroom and it shuts off when the film is dry. You stil need to use Photoflo, but you'll get really clean negatives.

That crud might also be coming from your water! Get a plastic in-line fuel filter at the auto supply and put it in the hose to your film washer. I had a big problem with teensy particles in my tap water a number of years ago. The city water department said "Oh, that's perfectly safe to drink!" I started using a filter...

 

[AusDLK]

Besides the cleanliness issue, what do you think of Tri-X and Diafine?

I'm about to try this combo.

What do you rate the film at? How long in A and B?

Thanks.

 

[russianRF]

I get spots on my film all the time, even with PhotoFlo. It's infuriating, especially since even the special "emulsion cleaners" I've bought don't seem to clean very well.

I love black and white film, and will use it for a while. But I definitely hear you; sometimes you don't want to d**k around with fragile negatives, which means digital digital digital...

 

[hjagis]

I get spots on my film all the time, even with PhotoFlo. It's infuriating, especially since even the special "emulsion cleaners" I've bought don't seem to clean very well.

I love black and white film, and will use it for a while. But I definitely hear you; sometimes you don't want to d**k around with fragile negatives, which means digital digital digital...

Hi. I have used Vodka as the last bath. Dryes in minits and no spots. This is a old trix from press photographers when time was short. Hjalti

 

[jackbaty]

Al, thanks. I'll try making sure the water is filtered/distilled first and see if that helps. I'd say money is no object because without clean negatives I'll have to sell all my film gear - again. Shudder to think!

AusDLK: I really like the Tri-X/Diafine combination, although I freely admit that I was originally attracted to it only for its lack of dependence on accurate time and temperature, since I'm lazy and not terribly fussy about shadow details and such. Hate water and dust spots though! I shoot it at 1200 and then dunk it 3 minutes in both A and B.

 

[jaykuhlmann]

I hang mine in the shower and get very few dust spots. Also, once the film is clipped and hanging, shaking it from the bottom knocks off the big drops of water and minimizes water spots.

There is an excellent article by Ctein on (I think) on Luminous Landscape detailing a simple and fast method of spot removal using a Photoshop dust and scratches filter and the history brush. It works well. I'll post it if I can find it.

 

[jaykuhlmann]

Here's the link: http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2007/10/speedy-spotting.html

(I like that vodka idea, I'm definitely going to try that!)

 

[russianRF]

jay: water "spots" are often much more complex than simple dust and scratches. For example, at the end of my film, there is often a "spot" that runs lengthwise down the last few frames of the film. These sorts of "spots" are much harder to automatically correct, as they're not true "spots" but rather are large blotches and irregularities that interfere with the details in the image itself. Indeed, there have been a couple of times when I've thought "what an ugly image" until I realize that some of the ugly "detail" is really a large, oddly-shaped patch of water/Photoflo residue*.

Maybe you're luckier and/or have a better method of drying your negatives. I dunno. But I do know that I've been using Photoshop for over ten years and am well acquainted with the healing brush, dust and scratches filter etc. I can say with confidence that these tools aren't much help with the sorts of "spots" problems I have; I'd imagine if someone is in here complaining, they probably have the more severe "spotting" problem like how I have.

*I'm blaming Photoflo because I still get these problems even when I use Photoflo with distilled water!

EDIT: Saw your link; yup, those "spots" are much smaller than I encounter; mine often run across the whole frame...

 

[jaykuhlmann]

RussianRF,

I know what you mean, I've had those too. I think if you ditch the Photoflo, make sure your water is filtered, and hang the negs in a dust free spot, you'll solve those problems. I've used all kinds of dodgy water; filtering will get rid of that chemical, mineral residue you mention. Also, I found some films are more prone to that sort of thing than others. Kodak films seem to work better for me in that regard, I have no idea why. Good luck.

 

[jackbaty]

*I'm blaming Photoflo because I still get these problems even when I use Photoflo with distilled water!

Well that's discouraging. I was rather hoping that using slightly less Photoflo with distilled water would help. Do you squeegee? I've been trying not to since so many folks seem to think it doesn't help, and could cause scratches, but I'm probably going to give it a try. Right now the risk of scratches is less troublesome than the fact of water spots.

Looking more closely at the 2 rolls I've recently developed, there does appear to be a thin streak running down portions of the negative. This scans as either faded blotches or a series of specks.

As a rule, I don't use vodka - for anything!

 

[johnwnyc]

Ignoring the scratches, are the spots running along about a quarter way up from the bottom caused by water/drying? No amount of brushing or blowing on the strip makes any difference. I may have overdone the Photo flo a bit.

... Looking more closely at the 2 rolls I've recently developed, there does appear to be a thin streak running down portions of the negative. This scans as either faded blotches or a series of specks.

If I can't get a clean negative to scan I'm going to start pining for digital...

Certainly sounds like overzealous Photo-Flo'ing, although with a good loupe and a lightbox it'd be pretty easy to find out for certain.

However, I gotta say, no matter how fascistic one can be about rinsing and drying negatives, dusting/spotting is a way of life in a mixed digital-film workflow. Back when I did wet printing I was terrible with spotting pens and Spotone, and I'm thankful that Photoshop has made the process much easier.

I use 8x or 16x multi-pass scanning on my keeper scans. This doesn't eliminate the dust, but it lessens the contrast between the white speck and the film grain, making it easier to clone out with Photoshop's stamp tool and healing brush.

 

[Bingley]

Besides the cleanliness issue, what do you think of Tri-X and Diafine?

I'm about to try this combo.

What do you rate the film at? How long in A and B?

Thanks.

I just started souping my own B&W too, and like the OP am starting off w/ Diafine. W/ Tri-X I followed bill mattock's advice in a thread from February 2008 "Your best B&W Film/Developer combo -- and why?." He recommended rating Tri-X at 1250 in Diafine, and I've found that advice right on target. Like the OP, I do 3 minutes each in solution A and B, rinse, fix, wash and dry.

I've also had small dust spots and such on my negs, so I'm still getting the drying bit down. Thanks for the link to the luminous landscape. The stamp brush in PS and I are becoming well acquainted.

 

[wallace]

I know those spots very well... But since I add 1ml drying aid to 1000ml of distilled water and leave the rolls for 1 minute in the last bath, I'm very satisfied. I hang the negs in the bathroom, leave them for some hours. No problems with dust (well, almost).
Don't give up, Jack! Hey, there is no alternative to Tri-X, X-Tol works fine for me.
That means you could start developing with Vitamin C and finish with Vodka! Sophisticated....;-)

Thomas

 

[MartinP]

Are you completely sure those tiny spots are really dust which has dried in to the emulsion ? If so, you would be able to see them on the neg with a magnifier and side-lighting. White in the print/scan means something black on the neg, so I wonder if you filtered the Diafine before using it ? No need to use filter paper etc. - a twist of cotton-wool stuffed in a filter-funnel will catch an amazing amount of dirty stuff from my ID11 (especially from re-used stock solution) so it would probably do the same for Diafine. Of course, clean the funnel and replace the cotton wool for filtering each of the two baths.

Assuming you have clean developer (no chemical hotspot blobs in the second bath, for example) then the idea about dust dried on to the negative could be possible. Slightly steamed shower-stalls are used successfully by loads of people as a handy drying space, so that is a practical idea.

If the rinse-water is a possible source of solid particles, try using water that has been filtered through one of the kitchen water-jugs. The wetting-agent can then be used at exactly the right amount (a typical 2ml-per-litre means only 0,6ml for a 300ml tank rinse) in the filtered water, to avoid getting any remnants of the detergent liquid dried on the film.

Then there are possible marks on the top, or bottom, of the platen on a flat-bed scanner, or on the light source. Slightly different, but I once had an indistinct mystery line appearing longitudinally on every strip of film I scanned with a Dimage DS.IV - it turned out to be a hair inside the scanner, just in the way of the scanning area.

The idea about using vodka to dry film sounds a bit like the old trick of an alchohol bath (eg. Drysonal) to speed up drying. It was an accident with alchohol covered film and a source of ignition that destroyed most of the famous Capa D-day negatives !

Do not despair - it is almost always possible to get sparkling clean negatives (famous last words) when a suitable routine is worked out. What a long post - I guess I have now jinxed my film-processing for the next year...

 

[Bassism]

As to the question about sqeegees, I've heard many people say that they simply use two clean, dry fingers to squeegee their negs. I've started using this method with Photoflo and I haven't had any water spots since.

 

[Tom A]

Dust is always there! Partly from static in the film, which attracts specks of it, dust in the camera and when drying. Photo Flo helps by allowing surface tension to be reduced and "drain" the water from the film. problem is that at the bottom of the hanging film, all the "crap" that migrated south, gets stuck there!
Best film drying is by cool, filtered air and film suspended with a weight at the bottom.
Ikea used to make a kitchen cabinet, about 6ft tall - shallow (18 inches) and narrow (12-15 inches). In my former darkroom I attached a Honda motorcycle airfilter to the top - cut a 4-5 inch hole there and stuck the filter down with a piece of wood across the top of it so the air was forced to draw through the filter. At the bottom of the cabinet I put a fan from a computer and it would just draw air down the film, pull the water along and dry the film in a couple of hours. Forced heat drying is only for emergencies as it will soften the emulsion and make any dust stick as well as dry the water into nasty spots.
The "alcohol" trick works, but anything stuck on the film will remain so - until you re-wash it. It was a way to get a neg quickly from the camera to the enlarger - not recommended for "regular" work.

 

[philipp.leser]

I think the spots in the picture are indeed dust spots. Water drying marks are usually large have a light perimeter (as others have said). You might not be able to clean the negative because the dust settled on the film while it was drying and is now attached to or in the emulsion.

I used to have all kinds of problems with water marks and dust and tried all kinds of tricks (squegee, Drysonal (= alcohol)).

The trick that actually got rid of all my trouble is the following:
1) For the final 24 inversions watering stage (I use the Ilford method and use normal tap water for the 3,6,12 inversions) I use distilled water (can be bought cheaply in home improvement stores)
2) After that a quick bath (2 minutes) in a wetting agent that I mix up in a 5 liter canister of distilled water and just keep using until it's empty. The large quantity makes it easy to actually use the amount of wetting agent (I use Tetenal Mirasol, 1:400).
3) While the film is in the wetting agent bath, turn on the hot water in the shower and let it run for a few minutes. This will get rid of most of the dust in the air.
4) Hang film to dry, don't touch it, don't use a squegee, just leave it alone (I know it's tempting to mess with ith). Don't forget to attach a small weight to keep it straight.

I haven't had any dried dust or water marks after that. The rest is just common sense (use a brush to brush off whatever dust is on the negative before scanning /enlarging etc.)

 

[AusDLK]

The three rolls I developed last night were cruddy as all get out.

I did use PhotoFlo and a squeegee. I transferred the film still in the reels to the shower and hung them there. There is virtually no air movement in the shower which I thought would minimize dust problems.

I am reusing filtered Photoflo made with distilled water.

Next time I'm going to put distilled water in the tank after washing and use an eyedropper full of Photoflo, mix, and let sit for a minute. Then I'll hang and gently "squeegee" with my fingers (a method I have used in the past). I 'll toss the liquid and make fresh the next time.

I am reading up on how to make a dryer using PVC pipe and a hairdryer. Or maybe, since Tom warns about using heat and I have lots of reels, I'll just put the film, reel and all, on a rack, just let it dry that way and see what happens.

I scan the entire roll using a Nikon 5000 and the roll film adapter. I wish there was a better way to handle the film going INTO the scanner. Right now it just kinda hangs there -- probably collecting dust... Maybe I need to invent some kind of blower/anti-static brush mechanism that the film passes through entering the scanner to dust the film off some...

By the way, I tried the Ctein Photoshop spotting technique and it works amazingly well.

 

[jackbaty]

Thanks everyone. You've all been very helpful. I've now got lots of things to try. Here's hoping I can find a workable combination!