Brooktaw
Established
I'm having problems with marks on my newly developed black and white negatives that are becoming a disincentive to home processing.
This is an example.
The sky area shows up the marks and I think they are too small and numerous to be dust.
I dry the film hanging over the bath and turn the shower on for a few minutes whilst the film is in the final wash to humidify the room as a way to settle any airborne dust.
Developer, stop and fix are all mixed fresh for each roll.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Here's the final image. Despite spotting in Lightroom it would not be acceptable as a 10x8 print.
Thanks.
Chris
This is an example.
The sky area shows up the marks and I think they are too small and numerous to be dust.
I dry the film hanging over the bath and turn the shower on for a few minutes whilst the film is in the final wash to humidify the room as a way to settle any airborne dust.
Developer, stop and fix are all mixed fresh for each roll.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Here's the final image. Despite spotting in Lightroom it would not be acceptable as a 10x8 print.
Thanks.
Chris
Nitroplait
Well-known
I once had a spot problem and introduced a 4 min water pre-soak, which apparently remedied the problem. I have done that ever since.
There is also the possibility that it could be an agitation issue - or lack thereof? What's your routine?
There is also the possibility that it could be an agitation issue - or lack thereof? What's your routine?
Brooktaw
Established
Thanks for this.
My agitation routine is 30 seconds of careful inversions to start with then 2 inversions every minute thereafter. Usual development time 7 minutes.
I'll try the pre-soak.
Chris
Nitroplait
Well-known
If you don't already, make sure to tab the tank hard on the table a couple of times after agitation/inversion.
Nitroplait
Well-known
You may also want to take a closer look on your problematic negatives. It is usually visible if dust have attached to the emulsion surface or if it is a processing issue.
Are the negatives clean on the base side?
You may consider providing details regarding film and chemicals. (brands/dillutions)
And; why do you mix fresh fixer for each roll? That seems very wasteful.
Are the negatives clean on the base side?
You may consider providing details regarding film and chemicals. (brands/dillutions)
And; why do you mix fresh fixer for each roll? That seems very wasteful.
Vince Lupo
Whatever
Would this happen to be Ilford FP4?
Beemermark
Veteran
if the stop bath is too strong you'll get "pin whole" marks like that. Why I now use just a water wash for stop bath.
Brooktaw
Established
Thanks for all the quick and helpful responses.
I'll try the
The film was Tri-X. Is FP4 especially susceptible to this?
I'll check the base and emulsion sides when I get home.
Film was developed at box speed in Kodak TMax developer at 1+4 for 7 minutes
Stop was Ilford Ilfostop 1+19 for 2 minutes with agitation
Fixer was Ilford Rapid fixer 1+4 for 4-5 minutes with occasional agitation.
I agree about fresh stop and fix each time being wasteful. It's often weeks, or even months, between developing sessions for me and I was wondering if the made-up stop and fix solutions were "settling out" in their storage containers, and also if agitating these containers to deal with that potential problem was possibly stirring up any sediment that may have settled at the bottom.
Chris
I'll try the
.
The film was Tri-X. Is FP4 especially susceptible to this?
I'll check the base and emulsion sides when I get home.
Film was developed at box speed in Kodak TMax developer at 1+4 for 7 minutes
Stop was Ilford Ilfostop 1+19 for 2 minutes with agitation
Fixer was Ilford Rapid fixer 1+4 for 4-5 minutes with occasional agitation.
I agree about fresh stop and fix each time being wasteful. It's often weeks, or even months, between developing sessions for me and I was wondering if the made-up stop and fix solutions were "settling out" in their storage containers, and also if agitating these containers to deal with that potential problem was possibly stirring up any sediment that may have settled at the bottom.
Chris
Vince Lupo
Whatever
Yes there was an issue with FP4 in March 2020 and Ilford put out a bulletin specifically related to their 120 film. They offered replacement rolls of film to those affected customers. I had a couple of rolls of FP4 120 and they produced the same kind of results you’ve shown here.
https://www.ilfordphoto.com/statemen...tore=ilford_uk
https://www.ilfordphoto.com/statemen...tore=ilford_uk
hap
Well-known
Not that I did not like the final image....I rather really liked the first one. Not commenting about the dots. Have nothing to contribute.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
No info about PhotoFlo so far.
Also, do you tap after each agitation? No need for inversions to be "careful".
Also, do you tap after each agitation? No need for inversions to be "careful".
DownUnder
Nikon Nomad
Hm. Your final image, scanned I take it and not printed on paper, looks pretty good to me. (I also like the image, BTW, those old Airstreams sure were techno-works of art in their day and age.)
Did you use old film or new film?
Some expired films are prone to all sorts of age-related problems - much like us photographers in our dotage, ha!!
I'm still using up old film stocks, including some ancient 35mm Panatomic-X I bought in the early 1990s and 120 rolls of unknown age I was given last year by a friend.
It's all still good film in terms of contrast and ISO speed, but I'm noticed a few rolls have developed specks not unlike those in your posted image.
My solution has been to do a final dip in PhotoFlo in distilled water, hang the film to dry in a clothes holder I bought at the local Reject Shop, which (in theory anyway) keeps the dust under control, and hope for the best.
Also some of my old color negatives (early 1970s) got rather too "intimate" with the inserts they were stored in for decades, and picked up a lot of mottling. They are family images and I wanted to keep them, but the spotting (on my PC) took forever and did some drastic damage to my mental well-being. Nor will they print well to beyond 5x8", but as they are of long-departed aunts and uncles, their children were thrilled to get the prints. So well worth the effort.
Did you use old film or new film?
Some expired films are prone to all sorts of age-related problems - much like us photographers in our dotage, ha!!
I'm still using up old film stocks, including some ancient 35mm Panatomic-X I bought in the early 1990s and 120 rolls of unknown age I was given last year by a friend.
It's all still good film in terms of contrast and ISO speed, but I'm noticed a few rolls have developed specks not unlike those in your posted image.
My solution has been to do a final dip in PhotoFlo in distilled water, hang the film to dry in a clothes holder I bought at the local Reject Shop, which (in theory anyway) keeps the dust under control, and hope for the best.
Also some of my old color negatives (early 1970s) got rather too "intimate" with the inserts they were stored in for decades, and picked up a lot of mottling. They are family images and I wanted to keep them, but the spotting (on my PC) took forever and did some drastic damage to my mental well-being. Nor will they print well to beyond 5x8", but as they are of long-departed aunts and uncles, their children were thrilled to get the prints. So well worth the effort.
bluesun267
Well-known
I swear by the Zero-Water filter pitchers for mixing chemicals and photo-flo. It creates essentially distilled water (zero, or near zero, total dissolved solids). We have extremely hard water here and this has helped me a lot. Also tastes great.
Sometimes this kind of thing just happens with hand-processed film, no matter how long you've been doing it.
But, my first thoughts are:
--You're not agitating enough. Constant agitation for first minute+a couple raps on the counter, and then increase your agitation to every 1.5 min, and include a relaxed, slow roll of the tank on its side/or at an angle (once or twice back and forth) with those inversions. And it never hurts to add another rap or two on the counter at other points within the developing sequence.
--Lose the stop bath. Just fill & empty the tank 5-7 times with tap water. Stop bath is totally unnecessary for most B/W film developing.
--Mix fixer and date bottle. Fixer won't spoil within a year, probably even longer. If you see particles develop in it, filter it out with a coffee filter before use. I also use Hypo-check to determine when fixer is saturated with silver, but you can always tell if it is time to mix fresh if it takes more than 1-2 minutes to clear the film (it'll be perfectly safe to pull film at 1 minute to check and then return to the fixer for the remainder of the time). Also, whatever your agitation protocol for fixer, just be sure to agitate constantly (and more vigorously than the developer) for at least the first minute or preferably two.
--Are you using a metal or plastic tank? I prefer metal but I'm in the minority it seems. I experienced some uneven processing with Rodinal and found that if I put some sort of spacer at the bottom of the tank, just enough to keep the reel about a 1/4-1/2" above the bottom surface of the tank, it helped a lot. (In my case I found an old plastic lens hood, one of those thin ones that used to come with the wide angle AF zoom lens that worked perfectly as a bottom spacer when processing a single roll of 35mm in a 2-roll tank). Of course I could also use an empty reel as a spacer but that would require a lot more developer.
--I always mix fresh photo-flo with the Zero (or distilled) water and never re-use. This is critical.
Sometimes this kind of thing just happens with hand-processed film, no matter how long you've been doing it.
But, my first thoughts are:
--You're not agitating enough. Constant agitation for first minute+a couple raps on the counter, and then increase your agitation to every 1.5 min, and include a relaxed, slow roll of the tank on its side/or at an angle (once or twice back and forth) with those inversions. And it never hurts to add another rap or two on the counter at other points within the developing sequence.
--Lose the stop bath. Just fill & empty the tank 5-7 times with tap water. Stop bath is totally unnecessary for most B/W film developing.
--Mix fixer and date bottle. Fixer won't spoil within a year, probably even longer. If you see particles develop in it, filter it out with a coffee filter before use. I also use Hypo-check to determine when fixer is saturated with silver, but you can always tell if it is time to mix fresh if it takes more than 1-2 minutes to clear the film (it'll be perfectly safe to pull film at 1 minute to check and then return to the fixer for the remainder of the time). Also, whatever your agitation protocol for fixer, just be sure to agitate constantly (and more vigorously than the developer) for at least the first minute or preferably two.
--Are you using a metal or plastic tank? I prefer metal but I'm in the minority it seems. I experienced some uneven processing with Rodinal and found that if I put some sort of spacer at the bottom of the tank, just enough to keep the reel about a 1/4-1/2" above the bottom surface of the tank, it helped a lot. (In my case I found an old plastic lens hood, one of those thin ones that used to come with the wide angle AF zoom lens that worked perfectly as a bottom spacer when processing a single roll of 35mm in a 2-roll tank). Of course I could also use an empty reel as a spacer but that would require a lot more developer.
--I always mix fresh photo-flo with the Zero (or distilled) water and never re-use. This is critical.
Apropos your fixer. If you shoot 35mm hang on to your snipped film leaders. You may use these for assessing fixer activity easily, by dispensing 100ml or so into a clear jug, dabbing the emulsion side of a leader piece with a spot of fixer, waiting 30 seconds or so, and immersing the film in the fixer. The time taken for the spot to be completely invisible is your clearing time, and for adequate fixing you must fix your processed film for a minimum of twice the clearing time. You do not need to first develop your piece of leader to do this test, or even do it in the dark. Once the time taken for your batch of fixer to clear a particular type of film has doubled from when it was freshly mixed, it may be considered spent.
Brooktaw
Established
Thanks very much to everyone for all the helpful comments and suggestions.
In a travesty of scientific method I have repeated the experiment changing practically every variable at once!!
so ...
Film: Rollei RPX 100 (what was already in the camera)
Developer: Ilfotec HC (best available option at my local photography store)
4 minute water pre-soak
Increased agitation with regular tapping (to the annoyance of the dog)
Water bath instead of Stop bath (more tapping)
Fixing for twice clearing time (yet more tapping)
Ilford method final wash.
All solutions, soaks and rinses in distilled water (I'll buy a zero filter jug soon)
Hung up to dry in a pre-steamed bathroom
Results look good so far but film needs to dry and I'm out this evening so scanning tomorrow.
I'll post the outcome here.
Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to comment.
Chris
In a travesty of scientific method I have repeated the experiment changing practically every variable at once!!
so ...
Film: Rollei RPX 100 (what was already in the camera)
Developer: Ilfotec HC (best available option at my local photography store)
4 minute water pre-soak
Increased agitation with regular tapping (to the annoyance of the dog)
Water bath instead of Stop bath (more tapping)
Fixing for twice clearing time (yet more tapping)
Ilford method final wash.
All solutions, soaks and rinses in distilled water (I'll buy a zero filter jug soon)
Hung up to dry in a pre-steamed bathroom
Results look good so far but film needs to dry and I'm out this evening so scanning tomorrow.
I'll post the outcome here.
Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to comment.
Chris
julio1fer
Well-known
Hope that you solved the issue. I have had similar spots when using unfiltered water. Does not look like a film issue. It also helps doing the last wash with deionized or distilled water.
Brooktaw
Established
Well the results of the amended processing routine are in and they are ...... mixed!
A comparable image to the one of the Airstream that I originally posted came out very much better ths time.
I have attached the negative image.
Other images, all on the end of the roll, were also satisfactorily free of spots.
However the problem still showed up on other images on the same roll.
In view of the aspects of the process that have been eliminated, particles in water,stop bath contamination etc I'm beginning to wonder if it is something to do with the final photo-flo. I tend to put a few drops into the open tank with the reel still in there in water and then pull the reel up and down to mix the concentrate into the water. I'll be a bit more scrupulous about this next time and mix up a batch of photo-flo at the correct dilution before pouring it into the tank for the final rinse.
A comparable image to the one of the Airstream that I originally posted came out very much better ths time.
I have attached the negative image.
Other images, all on the end of the roll, were also satisfactorily free of spots.
However the problem still showed up on other images on the same roll.
In view of the aspects of the process that have been eliminated, particles in water,stop bath contamination etc I'm beginning to wonder if it is something to do with the final photo-flo. I tend to put a few drops into the open tank with the reel still in there in water and then pull the reel up and down to mix the concentrate into the water. I'll be a bit more scrupulous about this next time and mix up a batch of photo-flo at the correct dilution before pouring it into the tank for the final rinse.