Al Kaplan
Veteran
Yeah! Second hand smoke! Now I'm usually forced to make my own smoke, and a few times when I WAS trying to show somebody some old tried and true darkroom techniques, such as blowing a cloud of smoke under the enlarger lens to get just a bit of diffusion, I had to put up with complaints about the smoke. Of course we didn't always use tobacco smoke either. For diffusion purposes smoke is smoke. Nicotine is known to increase cognitive ability while a certain other smoke can really get the creative juices flowing.
mfunnell
Shaken, so blurred
And yet, Leigh, here you are in Sydney. Where a roll of Tri-X costs in excess of $12 per roll while it can be ordered from the States for less than $5. Yes, that's cents per roll. 800 of the bggers. When ordering 50 rolls, that adds up.
And why is this so, you may ask. Not because it costs Kodak a single cent more to produce it. Not because of shipping costs (though you may be told otherwise). But simply because some corporate marketeer has determined they can get away with it. "Market Segmentation." "Price Expectation." In the pre-internet world, it was really because "they can't do anything about it - after all, where else can they buy film?"
Well, FCUK them! This little worm has turned.
I know, for the next-best thing to a fact, that even large corporations can be forced by (shock! - they talk about it, but hate it when it happens) market forces.
Camera bodies, here in Oz, used to cost twice what they cost in the US and Japan. Retailers had little choice - wholesale prices here in Oz were more than twice what they were overseas. Come the internet, grey market importers started eating the manufacturers' own supply chains. And the manufacturers were forced to give in. They next did it on lenses.
They've not yet done it on consumables. But when I order inkjet cartridges from Adorama at 1/6th the cost I can get them in Oz (and the local Canon rep confirms that's 1/3rd the price they're supplied to them wholesale), well, that's going to give to.
I'm all for supporting local businesses. I buy all my Cosina Voigtlander gear from Scott at Mainline - even when I could save by ordering from our head bartender. Scott is a good guy and neither he nor CV are gouging for profit - any differential is due to odd (and unpredictable) currency movement and (actual) shipping cost. I buy other things from Mainline.
I buy books from my local bookseller. I did from the day the original owner opened. If you what to have a local bookseller, you have to. I buy meat from my local butcher, vegies from my local grocer and bread from my local baker. But not to a fault. Part of being local, and becoming friends (as I have with my local merchants) is that they will tell you when you're being ripped off. The number of times my local bookseller has told me that a legal import he can sell me will cost, say, $125 - but I can get it equally legally from Amazon for $25 are innumerable. Chris doesn't like it, and neither do I. But there it is: between publishers gouging for profit (at the expense, in these internet-enabled days, mostly of merchants) and government regulation rip-offs happen.
But I am not going to spend three times as much for ink/paper nor twice as much for film (even after shipping) as I have to, simply to line the pockets of manufacturers who wholesale goods in Oz at 2-3 times the retail price they sell them elsewhere.
Why should I line their pockets at my expense while contributing to the (long term) loss of business to their retailers?
...Mike
[OK, so that was a free-range rant. Get over it. It is the internet, so what do you expect?]
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giellaleafapmu
Well-known
Shops by having the possibility to show you what you are buying and speaking with you in a real conversation should have a huge advantage on internet shops, my experience is that they usually waste completely this opportunity by ordering only consumer grade stuff, not being kind to customers and generally speaking being much less efficient than they should, I don't feel guilty if they eventually will disappear. The few exceptions which are nice to me seem to be also nice to others and apparently they do fine (in these cases I always prefer to buy from them rather than the net).
wgerrard
Veteran
I think the last two are pretty much universal human characteristics. Besides, if I want something right now and a local shop has it, then that's the fastest way to get it. However, it's been my experience that an item ordered at a shop can take much longer to arrive than from an online seller. If I pay for it, items arrive overnight. No shop has ever offered that option.
I agree that it is unfair to knowingly pump a local salesperson for info before buying online.
My experience with local shops is mixed. I buy shoes at a local shop and won't consider going elsewhere. I buy some books at a local bookshop, but most come from Amazon because the local shop doesn't carry them and I don't want to drive across town to make the order and then again to pick it up. My local camera shop gets my occasional business for film and supplies and bags, but they can't compete on price for big ticket items.
I still don't feel a need to "support" my local shop. If they sell something I decide to buy, that's sufficient support, especially because I will almost certainly pay a noticeable markup. Yes, an experienced local shop can be a great source of info and savvy, and that can compensate for the higher prices. But, if they're selling film and chemicals at 20 percent more than online, where's the advantage to me?
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Al Kaplan
Veteran
On small orders the shipping cost can kill you.
mfunnell
Shaken, so blurred
Al, from here in rip-off Oz, I can assure that sometimes it doesn't. Buying Canon pigment inks (a full set) for my printer is an example. Shipping from New York costs more than the retail price (in NY) of the ink. It is still 1/3rd what the ink would cost me here. Given the initial fixed cost of shipping anything, if I can add something to the order I'm ahead of a game I'm already well ahead of. Film is one of those things that's very good to add (since once the initial "ship anything at all" cost is paid, film costs very little per-item on top of that).
You've no idea how everything here used to be marked to more than twice it's "natural" price - before the internet allowed for international price comparison and modern shipping (thank you, Mr FedEx, thank you Mr UPS) changed the game on international shipping.
Things you regard as natural (and that I experienced when I lived there) are only just now arriving in the land of Oz (and other places I've lived are much the same).
"We'll triple the price, because we can" used to be the normal way of things for anyone exporting to small and (what used to be) remote markets.
...Mike
wgerrard
Veteran
Very true, and I try to avoid those. When I need a couple rolls of film, I do by locally, for example. Lots of rolls? No.
There's a lot of romance surrounding the notion of local shops, who have been in trouble for decades. Their real benefits have been outlined pretty well in this thread. How much of us is willing to spend to receive those benefits is a personal choice.
dmr
Registered Abuser
A little bit more is fine. We have one remaining "real" camera shop here (Rockbrook Photo, three locations, one near you) and I do patronize them semi regularly. Things like a monopod, accessories, and they do seem to be somewhat competitive on many products.
However, they REFUSE to be competitive on film prices! I would stop in there much more often (one shop is right off an exit I pass by twice a day) and give them more film business if they were somewhat realistic. For the common stuff I shoot most (generic Fuji 200-400-800) they are about twice the price of the discount stores.
As I think of it more, I don't really think they want or need to be competitive on film. Film sales are small $$$, and it takes employee time and such. If they lowered their film prices, they would need to devote more employee time for far less margin. I can understand them wanting to steer the employee sales effort to items that are more lucrative.
Oh well ...
Al Kaplan
Veteran
There have been a few times when I've bought something here in the U.S. at "local shop prices" and mailed it to other photographers elsewhere on the planet just because some shops here in the U.S. refuse to ship to some countries. In other cases it was a matter of just being a lot cheaper. Sometimes there's a non-photographic product that they can buy a lot cheaper than I can get it in the U.S. so we make a swap and don't worry about which one of us is getting screwed a bit because we're both saving a lot of money anyway.
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Avotius
Some guy
For the last 6 years I have done almost all my camera business at one shop, I even get my friends to go there and shop because I think it is very important to support local stores and such. Even though it is often 20-30 dollars more expensive to shop local I think its worth the money to have a face to talk to instead of a button to click online. Plus add to that online businesses here are notoriously good at tricking customers, like my one friend who bought a Zeiss 21 ZM lens online when I told him to buy local, but he wanted to save a few bucks and he got one with no warranty card, warranty sticker on box, and the back cap was off a voigtlander lens not the original Zeiss one...
The only time I use online photo related shopping is for the odd item, an adapter, strap or something like that which you cannot find easily.
The only time I use online photo related shopping is for the odd item, an adapter, strap or something like that which you cannot find easily.
mfunnell
Shaken, so blurred
photogdave
Shops local
As one who has unabashedly promoted supporting local business many times on this forum I am cheered to see many of you share the same view!
I'll agree with certain points in the original post, especially that loyalty has to be earned not demanded. I also agree that display items are display items. usually a retailer will have "one to show, one to go" or something similar so the customer can handle the product then buy a new in the box one if he likes. Sometimes the retailer is sold out of all but the display model and then it's up to the customer if he is comfortable with that. I wouldn't care less personally because I will be putting the equipment to much more rigorous challenges than a bit of fondling in a store.
But anyone who goes into a retail store to try something out with the full intention of buying online later is just being a jerk, plain and simple. Those people are only cheating themselves in the long run anyway.
Even worse are the cross-border shoppers who think they are so clever for saving a dollar or two when they look at a camera in Canada and buy it in the States. They're taking money out of our own economy and giving it to another country, then they wonder why things keep getting more expensive.
They think products that sell in both countries should somehow magically be the exact same price. Sorry guys, two different economies, two different markets etc.
I'll agree with certain points in the original post, especially that loyalty has to be earned not demanded. I also agree that display items are display items. usually a retailer will have "one to show, one to go" or something similar so the customer can handle the product then buy a new in the box one if he likes. Sometimes the retailer is sold out of all but the display model and then it's up to the customer if he is comfortable with that. I wouldn't care less personally because I will be putting the equipment to much more rigorous challenges than a bit of fondling in a store.
But anyone who goes into a retail store to try something out with the full intention of buying online later is just being a jerk, plain and simple. Those people are only cheating themselves in the long run anyway.
Even worse are the cross-border shoppers who think they are so clever for saving a dollar or two when they look at a camera in Canada and buy it in the States. They're taking money out of our own economy and giving it to another country, then they wonder why things keep getting more expensive.
They think products that sell in both countries should somehow magically be the exact same price. Sorry guys, two different economies, two different markets etc.
wgerrard
Veteran
Dave, it's true that different countries are different markets and prices can legitimately differ. They can also illegitimately differ. While I can't discuss film prices in Australia from a first-hand perspective, I do know that groceries here in the southeast U.S. commonly stock apples and other produce from New Zealand at prices no higher than local produce. Now, apples aren't very expensive, so maybe they sell for ten cents each in New Zealand. But, it does make me wonder why it's profitable to fly apples across the globe but film going the other way has to be tripled in price to be profitable?
Merchants can also take advantage of customers' assumptions that imported goods must be steeply priced. When I was in the UK, shrink-wrapped U.S. software was priced at a pound-to-dollar equivalency. I.e., if it cost $399 in the U.S., it cost 399 pounds in the UK. That represented close to a doubling in price. It turned out that much of the software "imported" from the U.S. was burned to CD and packaged in Ireland. In a similar scam, CD vendors were caught jacking up CD prices.
Local retailers are a good thing, but people will not support them unconditionally.
Merchants can also take advantage of customers' assumptions that imported goods must be steeply priced. When I was in the UK, shrink-wrapped U.S. software was priced at a pound-to-dollar equivalency. I.e., if it cost $399 in the U.S., it cost 399 pounds in the UK. That represented close to a doubling in price. It turned out that much of the software "imported" from the U.S. was burned to CD and packaged in Ireland. In a similar scam, CD vendors were caught jacking up CD prices.
Local retailers are a good thing, but people will not support them unconditionally.
kshapero
South Florida Man
get this:
In early August I was picking up some film from Dale Labs in Hollywood, FL from David Farkas. As I was leaving, he showed me a Leica M7 ala carte at a price to good to passup. I bought it a couple of days later. After a month it developed a problem requiring repair. He said he would send it to Leica to assure me there would be no cost. As I was leaving and a little forlorn, he went and opened his glass cabinet and handed me a new MP as a loan until my M7 was fixed. Never got that kind of service online before. Thanks Dave.
In early August I was picking up some film from Dale Labs in Hollywood, FL from David Farkas. As I was leaving, he showed me a Leica M7 ala carte at a price to good to passup. I bought it a couple of days later. After a month it developed a problem requiring repair. He said he would send it to Leica to assure me there would be no cost. As I was leaving and a little forlorn, he went and opened his glass cabinet and handed me a new MP as a loan until my M7 was fixed. Never got that kind of service online before. Thanks Dave.
Jamie123
Veteran
Are you asking me personally? If so, then yes, I do answer many more questions that I ask.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe that meeting real life people and having the opportunity to learn directly from them is a huge benefit. My point is that nowadays more people have access to this kind of information than they used to.
You can get invaluable information from highly qualified people who may hang out at your local store because they live across the globe.
Steve Bellayr
Veteran
There are many small/medium stores that advertise on the net. They have excellent prices and are willing to give free advice when needed when purchasing. Also, their grading is consistent. Their prices are often lower than auctions.
Jamie123
Veteran
By the way, so far I think I have received the best support from online merchants. Stephen Gandy answered all of my questions through e-mail mostly within an hour, even on Sundays. When I finally ordered from him he shipped the package on the same day. It was a Saturday.
Another one would be Doug Fisher. I inquired about one of his MF film holders and he was quick to reply with a very thorough answer. After a short back and forth about what holder to get he advised me to go with the cheaper version for my needs. Again, quick e-mail replies even on Sundays. Needless to say I ordered from him the next day.
My point is that online purchase doesn't always mean bad customer service. And I'd rather support a good foreign merchant than a bad local one.
Another one would be Doug Fisher. I inquired about one of his MF film holders and he was quick to reply with a very thorough answer. After a short back and forth about what holder to get he advised me to go with the cheaper version for my needs. Again, quick e-mail replies even on Sundays. Needless to say I ordered from him the next day.
My point is that online purchase doesn't always mean bad customer service. And I'd rather support a good foreign merchant than a bad local one.
Leigh Youdale
Well-known
Roger Hicks
Veteran
That's about it. Anyone else here a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts? Because the latest RSA journal has a lot of fascinating articles on 'social capital', mutual trust, and similar 'soft' aspects of the economy, and their benevolent effects on the 'hard' economy.
And as someone else said, it's just plain rude to waste anyone's time.
Cheers,
R.
john neal
fallor ergo sum
Oh to have a local store to use!
While I agree with a lot of what has been said here - particularly in Roger's opening piece, I do wonder why there is not a good camera store within about 50 miles of where I live. When i was a kid with a box brownie, there were 2 or three within a 30 minute walk. Accepting that the local guy cannot compete on price and has additional overheads is surely part of what used to be called the "socisl compact"? If we don't use them, we are bound to lose them.
I have suffered from acquisition syndrome for the better part of the last 30 years (seriously - look it up), and have probably upset my fair share of shop owners / assistants, something I am not proud of by the way. I realised a couple of years ago that it's not all about having the biggest, newest, most expensive - it's not even about having something that is good enough and what you can do with it. It's about having fun doing it.
I have now found a store that I patronise, and I'm willing to invest the time and expense in a 100+ mile round trip, even if I don't buy something. The staff there are knowledgeable and friendly, and give good advice. Add to that the fact that they have hardly any new cameras, and it's no longer just about acquisition.
Like many people, I need to take more photographs, and spend less time worrying about gear
While I agree with a lot of what has been said here - particularly in Roger's opening piece, I do wonder why there is not a good camera store within about 50 miles of where I live. When i was a kid with a box brownie, there were 2 or three within a 30 minute walk. Accepting that the local guy cannot compete on price and has additional overheads is surely part of what used to be called the "socisl compact"? If we don't use them, we are bound to lose them.
I have suffered from acquisition syndrome for the better part of the last 30 years (seriously - look it up), and have probably upset my fair share of shop owners / assistants, something I am not proud of by the way. I realised a couple of years ago that it's not all about having the biggest, newest, most expensive - it's not even about having something that is good enough and what you can do with it. It's about having fun doing it.
I have now found a store that I patronise, and I'm willing to invest the time and expense in a 100+ mile round trip, even if I don't buy something. The staff there are knowledgeable and friendly, and give good advice. Add to that the fact that they have hardly any new cameras, and it's no longer just about acquisition.
Like many people, I need to take more photographs, and spend less time worrying about gear