sanmich
Veteran
Now that Kodachrome is smelling funny...
:bang: (should be a new icon for this one)
Does someone know how other color films/ processes behave in terms of long term archivability?
Any clear advantage between C41 and E6?
any good film in particular?
:bang: (should be a new icon for this one)Does someone know how other color films/ processes behave in terms of long term archivability?
Any clear advantage between C41 and E6?
any good film in particular?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Modern E6 is alleged to be as stable as K-14. We'll know in 50 years' time. I doubt I'll be writing in to complain, as I'll be 109.
I've seen no deterioration in E6 in 20+ years.
Cheers,
R.
I've seen no deterioration in E6 in 20+ years.
Cheers,
R.
sanmich
Veteran
That's the point, isn't it...
I would like to see a film that will, at least, outlast me.
Frankly, I don't believe in E6 being close to K14.
On what basis? none scientific...
Just a simple hint that there are very good commercial reasons for such a claim. First of them, to demonstrate that K is not needed anymore.
Epson and others have claimed a life of 200 years for some of their inkjets prints. Even under optimal conditions, I believe such a claim in almost ridiculous. Based on what? again... not much more than gutfeeling.
But, Roger, if we put aside the comparison to K, Does that mean that E6 is generally more stable than C41?
sepiareverb
genius and moron
Well for all the worry about RC papers being unstable long term: I just got a Kodak Dataguide from the 70's and the RC samples look every bit as good as the fiber ones. Surprised me.
amateriat
We're all light!
I've read a lot of stuff on Henry Wilhelm's site over the years. There's been the very occasional catcall about his methods (usually from someone with an alternative method of his/her own...you know how that goes), but his seems the best scientific testing extant, so I go by it.
His testing of both contemporary E6 and C41 film types indicated greater longevity compared to previous films (E4/C22, etc.). Not quite Kodachrome longevity, but nothing to sneeze at. (And, remember, Kodachrome's street cred pales in comparison to conventional b/w film, where longevity is measured in multiples of centuries...assuming reasonably-decent processing.)
I have the feeling that, provided the processing is good, most contemporary emulsions, properly stored, will hold up nicely for a good deal longer than many of us might be be hanging around here in mortal form. That's not a bad start.
- Barrett
His testing of both contemporary E6 and C41 film types indicated greater longevity compared to previous films (E4/C22, etc.). Not quite Kodachrome longevity, but nothing to sneeze at. (And, remember, Kodachrome's street cred pales in comparison to conventional b/w film, where longevity is measured in multiples of centuries...assuming reasonably-decent processing.)
I have the feeling that, provided the processing is good, most contemporary emulsions, properly stored, will hold up nicely for a good deal longer than many of us might be be hanging around here in mortal form. That's not a bad start.
- Barrett
sanmich
Veteran
Barrett
I vaguely recall a scientific report on longevity of films under optimal condition, stating a 500 years for B&W, 200 years for K14, and around 20 years for other materials before a measurable fading would take place.
Not that these times have anything real for me, but they clearly put K14 closer too B&W than to other kids on the color block.
I love the "in mortal form" mention though
I vaguely recall a scientific report on longevity of films under optimal condition, stating a 500 years for B&W, 200 years for K14, and around 20 years for other materials before a measurable fading would take place.
Not that these times have anything real for me, but they clearly put K14 closer too B&W than to other kids on the color block.
I love the "in mortal form" mention though
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
Kodachrome has a very long lifespan - if stored properly! One of the problem is that Kodachrome suffers if it is projected. Not for the occasional projection, but if it is used in multiple projections. I remembers Kodak warning me when i was doing AV programs for trade shows and presentations - cumulative projection exceeding 1 hour would damage the slide! They recommended duping the Kodachromes on to E4/E6 for projections.
The E4 films does fade badly with time, the E6 seems to hold up better ( i still have about 4-5000 slides in boxes and Carousel trays from days gone by. Most of the stuff from the early 70's on Ektachrome is severely faded and I even have a couple of 100 of GAF 500 slides which defines "color shift" - more or less red/brown by now!!!!!
Black and white correctly developed and fixed and stored will last a long. long time (think Julia Margaret Cameron - and her "archival" skills were less than perfect).
C41 does fade a bit - I find that stuff that is 10+ years old start showing colorshifts and early XP1/Kodak C41 black/white seem to loose contrast after a decade or so.
My old Kodachromes from the early 70's - are still nice and bright (mostly K25) - but they have not been subjected to too many projection runs anyway.
The E4 films does fade badly with time, the E6 seems to hold up better ( i still have about 4-5000 slides in boxes and Carousel trays from days gone by. Most of the stuff from the early 70's on Ektachrome is severely faded and I even have a couple of 100 of GAF 500 slides which defines "color shift" - more or less red/brown by now!!!!!
Black and white correctly developed and fixed and stored will last a long. long time (think Julia Margaret Cameron - and her "archival" skills were less than perfect).
C41 does fade a bit - I find that stuff that is 10+ years old start showing colorshifts and early XP1/Kodak C41 black/white seem to loose contrast after a decade or so.
My old Kodachromes from the early 70's - are still nice and bright (mostly K25) - but they have not been subjected to too many projection runs anyway.
Al Kaplan
Veteran
Ektachromes supposedly stand up to bright light, as in projection, better than Kodachrome while the various Kodachromes are about as fade free as you can get if stored in the dark.
I always suspected that when RC paper was first introduced Kodak really didn't have a clue about longevity under various storage conditions. They just wanted to cover their butts when they gave it such short life expectancy. I've got RC prints from the late 1970's that look just fine.
I always suspected that when RC paper was first introduced Kodak really didn't have a clue about longevity under various storage conditions. They just wanted to cover their butts when they gave it such short life expectancy. I've got RC prints from the late 1970's that look just fine.
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amateriat
We're all light!
Tom & Al: Kodachrome and Ekatchrome are odd siblings: the former has better dark-storage longevity, but suffers badly from repeated exposure to projection lamps (a pity, given how stunning a K'chrome slide looks projected large on a good screen, or a properly-painted wall), while the latter has comparatively inferior dark-storage longevity, but can stand up to repeated projection.
Last time I checked my slide archives (wow...two years ago?), the Kodachromes, of course, looked just dandy; the E6 Ektachromes were also holding their own; the wee bit of E4 Ektachrome I shot (I was just getting going a year or two before E6 hit the scene) varied from okay to mediocre...but that was how I remember it at the beginning; the few rolls of GAF 500 I shot looked...roughly about as lousy as when I got the film back from the lab (it really was bad-to-the-bone, emulsion-wise); My Agfa CT18 slides, interestingly enough, looked "fine", i.e. just as I remembered them when the slides came in the mail.
Of course, all these slides are kept in plastic boxes, in the proverbial Cool, Dry (and dark) Place.
- Barrett
Last time I checked my slide archives (wow...two years ago?), the Kodachromes, of course, looked just dandy; the E6 Ektachromes were also holding their own; the wee bit of E4 Ektachrome I shot (I was just getting going a year or two before E6 hit the scene) varied from okay to mediocre...but that was how I remember it at the beginning; the few rolls of GAF 500 I shot looked...roughly about as lousy as when I got the film back from the lab (it really was bad-to-the-bone, emulsion-wise); My Agfa CT18 slides, interestingly enough, looked "fine", i.e. just as I remembered them when the slides came in the mail.
Of course, all these slides are kept in plastic boxes, in the proverbial Cool, Dry (and dark) Place.
- Barrett
Al Kaplan
Veteran
Even my dad's Kodachromes from the 30's and 40's still look OK, but that original Kodachrome was extremely contrasty. I wish that I could find the rest of the boxes, the stuff he shot while in the Massachusettes State Guard, which became the National Guard after World War II, photos from my mom and dad's honeymoon in Washington, DC in 1941, me as an infant, and his pictures from India and the island of Tinian in the Marriannas, That was were the B-29 bombers took off from when they dropped the two atom bombs on Japan. My son Jonathan might have them. I should ask him.
I also remember some B&W stuff he shot both inside a B-29 and the view from the plane as they flew "over the hump", the Himalayas, ferrying bombs from India to China in unpressurized and unheated planes at close to 30,000 feet wearing oxygen masks so they could breath.
All the Anscochromes I shot in the nineteen sixties are so badly faded they're useless. The E2 Ektachromes held up about as well as the E4. I never shot any E3 because it wasn't made in 35mm, just 120 and sheet sizes.
My all time favorite was Kodachrome II and they still look as new.
I also remember some B&W stuff he shot both inside a B-29 and the view from the plane as they flew "over the hump", the Himalayas, ferrying bombs from India to China in unpressurized and unheated planes at close to 30,000 feet wearing oxygen masks so they could breath.
All the Anscochromes I shot in the nineteen sixties are so badly faded they're useless. The E2 Ektachromes held up about as well as the E4. I never shot any E3 because it wasn't made in 35mm, just 120 and sheet sizes.
My all time favorite was Kodachrome II and they still look as new.