Metering for Slides with a Meterless M

wilonstott

wilonstott

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I am interested in shooting slides. I must admit, I wish I'd been into this years ago, before Kodachrome died its quiet little death. However, I like what I see of Astia by way of flickr. Anyway, on to the heart of the matter. I have an M2 and two meters: a VC II centerweight reflective meter, and a Gossen Digisix that I use mainly as an ambient meter. Which do you like better for slides? Now I realize I could just go out and buy and M7 for the AE, but alas I have to pay rent and eat on occasion--so that's out the window. So, for now, I'm working with what I've got. So I suppose this is a question about meter types, reflective or ambient, and their advantages/disadvantages with E6. Also, if you have any tips for metering--with either type--I am very interested in hearing them. And for those who will surely point this out--I will try it myself and see what works best for me, but I'd like to forego any rookie mistakes from the onset--hence my question. Thanks guys, I look forward to hearing what you have to say.
 
aperture64 said:
I own the VC meter and I use it the same way I would use it when shooting Black and White. Leave it on the camera, and push the button. If it's a high contrast scene or a tricky lighting situation, I'll get close to the main subject or take a few different shots at different exposures. I've never had a problem with any of my photos.
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So, if the subject is a person, you meter off of the face, and use that reading straight up? No compensation on your part?

I suppose I always seem to have a problem knowing what area should be my middle gray.--thus what to meter off of and when and how to compensate the exposure. I think this is why i tend to use the ambient meter more--but it doesn't work very well if I'm not in the same light. Plus it draws more attention than the VC does.
 
Whatever metering tool you use (including an AE camera), and negative and slide film alike, you have to decide which zone of your scene to meter. For example, in an environmental portrait a part of the face of your subject.

Then, depending on the meter you can meter off the subject, emulate the subject with your hand or a grey card, a wall, a carpet, etc., use a reflective meter, or an incident meter held in the right direction.

The only thing an external meter can give you in addition to a metered camera is (a) sensitivity and, if you want it, (b) incident metering, and (c) dynamic range of your scene (the Gossen meters I use have a nice read-out for that). Your VCII meter should be around 2 stops more sensitive than an in-camera meter, it should be good enough for what you want to do, IMO. In any case, I use it often for similar applications. The Digisix has contrast range and incident metering capabilities, right ?

What's nice about the VCII, is that you don't have to point it explicitly at your subject, which in a casual, environmental setting helps preserving the mood. Just look down on your camera and causally point the camera where you want to.

In other words, I believe you have already what you need.

Best,

Roland.
 
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Without regard to the subsequent comments and the utility of incident readings, your question about taking a face reading and using it straight up- most Caucasian skin would be zone 6, so if that's what you metered, you'd want to open it one stop. You could also meter off the palm of your hand (in similar light) and adjust that, to get to zone 5.

There's a good thread on Large Format Photography Forum about spot metering for landscape, which says it all in about ten short sentences:

Aim the one degree spot at the darkest area in the scene where you still want to see some detail. Close down two stops.

You have just placed the shadow area in Zone III.

That's usually the proper exposure for the scene.

Now, aim the spot at the brightest area in the scene.

If it's a five stop range between the darkest and brightest reading, use normal development.

Less than five, increase development.

More than five, decrease development.

No need to take a whole series of meter readings and average them. That's defeating the purpose.

Just make certain that you have given enough exposure to get some detail in the shadows. Then, develop for the highlights.

That's the Zone System in a nut shell.
 
ferider said:
...

Your VCII meter should be around 2 stops more sensitive than an in-camera meter, it should be good enough for what you want to do, IMO. In any case, I use it often for similar applications.
...

Roland.
Click to expand...

I was wondering if you were speaking only of Leica here? In SLR cameras with built in meters I have used, I have found them to be pretty accurate. That is if you meant accurate instead of sensitive. If sensitivity, then the Fujica ST 901 has and EV of -3 to 18 at ASA 25. That's pretty sensitive.
 
Yeah, I meant RF bodies (Leica, Bessa, ZI) and sensitivity. I think the VCII goes down to -2 EVs or so. At least the two that I have do.
 
aperture64 said:
Cinematographers would tell you different. Using a light meter to figure out lighting ratios is key. None of them pull out a gray card and start speaking about Zones.
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Well, three readings at most.

Star's skin tone (key reading).

Highlight

Shadow.

But yeah, multiple Zone readings (beyond 2 or at most 3) suggests that we are dealing with the Zone System as a religion, not as an approach to metering. (And the Zone System as a rather feeble subset of sensitometry, at that).

Cheers,

R.
 
It's just a matter of terminology. Re-read what Zonan wrote (with which I agree) wrt metering:

He talked about measuring subject ("face reading", "Star's skin tone", etc), highlight and shadow, and dynamic range.

With a good meter (including the Digisix ?) you just need to measure (a) the subject and, (b) in one movement from highlight to shadow, since it shows the dynamic range on its display.
 
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Actually, the meters on the "modern" Leica film bodies (M6 TTL, M7, & MP) go down to -2 EV (@ ISO 100). It's the meters in the M8 & M9, the Cosina bodies ("Voigtlander" & "Zeiss Ikon"), & the Konica Hexar RF that only go down to 0 EV (ISO 160 on the M8/M9 & 100 for the film cameras). I'm guessing this has something to do w/the larger metering area on the metal shutters.

ferider said:
Yeah, I meant RF bodies (Leica, Bessa, ZI) and sensitivity. I think the VCII goes down to -2 EVs or so. At least the two that I have do.
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ferider said:
It's just a matter of terminology. Re-read what Zonan wrote (with which I agree) wrt metering:

He talked about measuring subject ("face reading", "Star's skin tone", etc), highlight and shadow, and dynamic range.

With a good meter (including the Digisix ?) you just need to measure (a) the subject and, (b) in one movement from highlight to shadow, since it shows the dynamic range on its display.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I was thinking of cinematography where development times aren't much of an option: you do it all with light.You're right, I should have read Zonan's post more carefully.

Cheers,

R.
 
Any good tutorial on light metering will work; this query has nothing to do with the kind of film you use, nor with the camera you have.

So, go to your library and read/study up. Search here for light meter recommendations etc etc. AND make sure you know which ISO to use for your particular slide film. They are factory rated , but might well do better with an off ISO setting ...

In the end, It might take you a couple of months, years or even decades to get this down to automatic success. So bracket and learn.
 
wilonstott said:
So, if the subject is a person, you meter off of the face, and use that reading straight up? No compensation on your part?

I suppose I always seem to have a problem knowing what area should be my middle gray.--thus what to meter off of and when and how to compensate the exposure. I think this is why i tend to use the ambient meter more--but it doesn't work very well if I'm not in the same light. Plus it draws more attention than the VC does.
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Unless the person is in a differnet light you can meter the same way as anything. Usually I point to something on the ground that looks middle gray.

If I'm inside perhaps it's the carpet. If I'm outside, I might look for grass or concrete. Even spots in the sky (away from the sun) can be useful. I'd avoid water, because the light reflection fools the meter.

Always double check with your instinct though. Most indoors are EV 5 and sunny 16 is EV 15. Learn to count stops.
 
When I decided to burn a roll of chromes in my M4-2, I simply used it as if it were ISO 400 print film, guessed the exposure, bracketed when in doubt, and ended up with some fairly decent frames (in terms of exposure, mind you). During the process, I was a bit cautious and went for underexposure every time I hesitated.

BTW, when it came to metering, I used a Leica MR4 meter... and tried to take a reading off the subject I wanted to photograph. Of course, I avoided tricky situations (backlit subject or subject placed under radically different lighting) because my goal was to get even exposures... as many times as possible.

Just load up the film, use incident light, adjust to your subject's situation and then, if in doubt, bracket (one above, one below).
 
Hmm. With slide film I always exposed for the highlights - and got away with it, theres nothing worse than washed out slides...on the other hand I do recall getting underexposed faces sometimes....this was back in my Nikon SLR days with on on board meter that I just used assumming it was right.

Nowadays I am in the same boat. I have an M2 and a weston meter, and just bought $100 of slide film, and am now anxious about exposure in the same way, I have only used a handheld meter for B&W film and half the time I guess from experience, but I dont feel I can do that with the colour reversal.
 
I used to shoot slide film like Arista Premium 400. I just didn't care, my IIIf and a very small hand meter worked most of the time. Now I'm like Carlsen H. and I just read (after printing it out) Roger's slide exposure module. I'm still nervous but I do feel like I know what to do. Anyway, the Rollei will have E-6 in it this December.

I did this in 1963 after a couple of pints of beer and no meter so, I should be OK:

4106974520_c7d720f086.jpg
 
RE cinematographers: I'm aware that they most often use an incident light meter. In fact, I own a Spectra incident meter that I picked up second hand. It still has a calibration sticker on it from a lab out in Hollywood! I don't carry it as a general walkaround meter, as it is a bit bulky for that. But I use it on occasion.

The first meter I ever bought was also an incident type, a Norwood Director. Today I have several of those, which I still use as well. Eventually the Norwood was joined by a Weston Master IV (I think it was a IV) so I had the option of using either method.

There must be a point here somewhere. OK, point #1: you can work accurately with a handheld meter. I was shooting Kodachrome-X with my M2 in the early '60's, before built-in meters were common--especially on Leicas. #2: You can work effectively with either type. #3: An incident meter does the averaging for you, cutting down on the number of readings you need. Point #4: no matter what meter you have, you still have to use your judgment.

So what I'm really saying is that you don't have to run right out for an M7, or even an M6, to expose slide film well. The two meters you have should serve you well, and you even have the option of incident or reflected readings.
 
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