Just bought a Zeiss Ikon and I've already broken it.

[Tobias 40:15]

Hi everyone,

Not really the first post I was hoping to make on the forum. I've just bought a mint Zeiss Ikon off eBay. The film advance and shutter were working nicely, and the metering was working as I expected.

However it all went awry when I decided to load my first film. I was fiddling around with the frame advance lever with the back of the camera open and a bit of the leader of the film got stuck in the shutter. I pulled it out and the shutter closed. Nothing appeared to be damaged when I pulled the leader out of the shutter. None of this happened with any force, and the shutter looks fine.

So there's no film in the camera, but now the film advance lever behaves as though the shutter is ready to take a picture. Pressing the shutter release has no effect though, so the camera appears to be jammed somehow. I removed the batteries and put them back in but it's still stuck.

I'm now a bit worried. Any ideas?

 

[Tobias 40:15]

Adding to the information:

Unfortunately there was no instruction manual with the camera, so I shouldn't have rushed into the process. The frame indicator has a red 'S' showing. Does this mean the camera thinks there is a completed roll ready to be rewound? If so, how do I make the camera think it's rewound?

The batteries were fresh, although I did leave the camera on for a couple of nights thinking that they wouldn't drain without use.

 

[barefoot]

The batteries should be good, I'm pretty sure the meter turns off after a matter of seconds. The one thing I can think of to check is that the camera/meter turned on, then see if the shutter will fire - I think it should do so even with the film door wide open - if it does, you're good, just continue threading the film leader and go from there.
Take the above with a tiny grain of salt since I'm a Bessa shooter. Someone with more Ikon experience should be by soon.

 

[watchyourbackgrounds]

I bet it's nothing. Look--there's a button on top that turns right and left to expose and cover a red dot. That's the battery on-off. Push it to the left and see the magic happen for you. I'm sure that's it.

 

[Tobias 40:15]

Thanks guys,

The camera is definitely on. I've just tried some new batteries and there's no change in the situation. The camera was certainly happy to operate with the door wide open previously.

Because the film leader got caught in the shutter and propped it open briefly, I'm wondering if the camera thinks it hasn't fired when it has. I'm mechanically ignorant about the internal workings of course, so that's just a random speculation.

Or does the red 'S' on the frame counter mean I need to tell the camera it's rewound?

This is my first manual camera, and I probably need the instruction manual...

 

[Keith]

Try rotating the toothed film advance drum with your fingers a couple of times then firing the shutter ... mine locked up like this just after I got it and this seemed to fix the problem!

 

[Tobias 40:15]

Try rotating the toothed film advance drum with your fingers a couple of times then firing the shutter ... mine locked up like this just after I got it and this seemed to fix the problem!

Gave that a try, doesn't seem to have done anything.

There is a little button next to the thread for the tripod mount which must attach to the sprocket that guides the film. I assume this button is to allow/prevent the film from being wound back? This button seems loose (ie, if you hold the camera upside down it falls into the body, hold the camera upright and it sits proud of the body.) I can rotate the sprocket either way.

Would that have anything to do with it?

 

[Leigh Youdale]

The red "S" on my Bessa is simply indicating "Start". It automatically resets itself to "S" when you open the back of the camera. I imagine the Zeiss is the same. So nothing to be alarmed about there.
I'd follow Keith's advice. I think what has probably happened is that you've somehow simulated a "half-advance" and the shutter mechanism is stuck in the middle. Watch carefully what the shutter does while you're doing it though! It will probably move as it needs to position itself back in the "ready-to-fire" position.
Worst case scenario - contact Mainline, although they're not the Zeiss agents in Sydney they're usually very helpful.

 

[Keith]

That sounds like it could be your problem ... that button should have released by advancing the film lever. With the button in it means that the advance mechanism has been disengaged for rewinding the film ... it's not re-engaged until that button is out!

As Leigh said above the mechanism has been half advanced and needs to be completely advanced now to allow the shutter to fire!

 

[Leigh Youdale]

Gave that a try, doesn't seem to have done anything.

There is a little button next to the thread for the tripod mount which must attach to the sprocket that guides the film. I assume this button is to allow/prevent the film from being wound back? This button seems loose (ie, if you hold the camera upside down it falls into the body, hold the camera upright and it sits proud of the body.) I can rotate the sprocket either way.

Would that have anything to do with it?

Probably. The rewind button shouldn't be slack like that - should pop in or out fairly decisively. Sounds like a lock-up of sorts between the shutter mechanism and the film advance/rewind mechanism, but just how to fix it I hesitate to suggest due to lack of detailed knowledge as to how it all works.
Sound like reloading and sacrificing a roll of film won't work either because (if I read you correctly) the film advance lever won't move and the shutter won't fire. One of those has to operate or be freed before things will happen.

 

[Tobias 40:15]

What you describe there Leigh seems to be the issue.

Just to be clear, there's no film loaded (haven't had the change to take any shots yet).

So you guys reckon by rotating the barrel that you thread the leader into may 'cock' the mechanism correctly?

Which way should I be rotating it, left or right? I have tried both ways and the shutter still won't fire.

 

[Leigh Youdale]

No, don't rotate the spool that you thread the leader into. It has a slip clutch mechanism and won't achieve anything. You need to rotate the toothed spindle that engages the film sprocket holes. Turn it from left to right (or anti-clockwise if viewed from above). You should see the shutter start to move vertically. Keep turning - it'll be stiff - and eventually the shutter should reach a position where it's cocked and ready to fire. It should be obvious when that happens.
Chances are that then things will work - but check out that rewind button too!

 

[Leigh Youdale]

And another thing - are you sure there's no part of the film left in the shutter that you can't see? The early Leica's (like my IIIf) were prone to clipping bits off the leader if they weren't trimmed correctly and these would often jam the shutters.

 

[Tobias 40:15]

Thanks Leigh,

That spindle rotates freely in both directions - it doesn't feel like it's attached to anything.

Nothing was clipped off the film. It was just a little corner of the leader, and it went in vertically if you get what I mean, so it propped the shutter open rather than having the shutter close over it.

 

[Keith]

Thanks Leigh,

That spindle rotates freely in both directions - it doesn't feel like it's attached to anything.

Which it's not unfortunately because the camera is locked in rewind mode!

This must be so frustrating for you! Don't give up though!

 

[Leigh Youdale]

OK. That shouldn't be the case, so it seems that there's a lock-up or disengagement that needs a release of some kind. I don't think I can help any more. C.R.Kennedy are the Zeiss agents in Australia but their service department is in Melbourne.
You might ring Scott at Mainline (Voigtlander agents at Crows Nest) on Monday and ask him about having their service guy take a look at it. Chances are it's relatively simple but might need to be opened up to free something.

 

[SRCPHOTO]

I had this happen once when loading the film too quickly in the cold.

I thought I had ruined my baby...

But, there is hope at the end of this. I sat down and had a good look at the camera and the locked shutter.
This is a failsafe of the camera to prevent a jammed blade. If you look closely at the shutter, you will notice that it is not in its proper prone position.
If you very VERY GENTLY..... prod the shutter blades from the back of the camera, it should cause the blades to snap back into place. Make sure to not have your finger or tool in the way when the shutter resets.

Now, just be more careful next time. Best of luck.

 

[Leigh Youdale]

The only other thing I can suggest is to use a pencil tip or similar and try "jiggling" both the rewind button and the advance lever simultaneously for a little while. There's a spring inside that holds the rewind button. When it's operating correctly you hear a little click when you push it in and there's another one when you advance the film after loading, which is when the button pops out again. If the spring is broken then there's nothing to be done except get a service guy to open it up. But if the spring is just jammed against something you might manage to free it by "fiddling".

 

[Tobias 40:15]

@ Keith - Yes, so frustrating!!! I was very excited to go and take photos this weekend (of rain, it seems).

@ Leigh - I start a new contract in Crows Nest in a week, so if it comes to that I'll definitely look them up before I send the camera away.

@ SRCPHOTO - I'm a bit nervous to touch the shutter (It looks delicate and very expensive).

Which part should I push, and in which direction? There seem to be three blades with little connecting 'hinges'. It appears to be completely closed, but of course I can't remember how it looked before.

Should I push using my finger, or would you recommend an implement?

 

[Leigh Youdale]

This is a failsafe of the camera to prevent a jammed blade. If you look closely at the shutter, you will notice that it is not in its proper prone position.
If you very VERY GENTLY..... prod the shutter blades from the back of the camera, it should cause the blades to snap back into place. Make sure to not have your finger or tool in the way when the shutter resets.

If the shutter is fully cocked you should see about four or five horizontal leaves BUT NO ACTUATING ARM.
If the shutter is fully released but not cocked then you should see three horizontal leaves and on the RHS of the frame aperture, two little cranked actuating arms with tiny rivets.
As you advance the winder those arms move out and down and reposition the shutter leaves. When you fire the shutter it snaps back up to the "rest" position.

But I think your real problem is in that rewind button mechanism. Either it's broken or it's somehow jammed in a neutral position. If you were very brave you could try removing the baseplate to have a look, but personally I wouldn't attempt it. Probably make things worse!