Plaubel roll op II

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Debusti Paolo

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Hi GUYS,
I've just seen a very nice Plaubel roll up II camera CLA on eVay @ about 250 euro.
I'M FASCINATED BY THIS KIND OF CAMERA But I've never used a folder in my life so my questions: is it a camera that is easy to use?what about the lens performances?is it confortable to carry all day??What do you think is a good price for it? should I look for other model/brand?Which?the auction will end within 2 days....
Thanks
 
The Roll-Op is certainly one of the less exciting RF folders. The lens (a uncoated fast Tessar type) simply does not have enough resolution for a 6x4.5 frame (the 2.9 is a bit marginal even on pre-war 6x9 Makinas, and was considered only suitable for fast press work in its time). And the mechanics are barely up to the lens - it was a consumer offer made up of the finder and lens of their (pro) Makina grafted onto a Balda (in its time point and shoot) body, nowhere near the Makina in design and engineering.

Besides, 250€ is outrageously expensive unless it is mint in box, clean ones tend to go for half that price.
 
Debusti Paolo said:
yes it's an anticomar 75/2,8!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!and the best foldin camera is??????
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Ah, I was thinking of the 100/2.9 as on the Makina and 6x9 RollOp; I'd forgotten there was an (equally bad) 75/2.8 as well.

I'm not the best person to ask about rollfilm folders as I think they're mostly grossly overrated. They were often very unergonomic with squinty finders when new, and 50+ years of wear and tear has made some of the good ones rickety too, even if they haven't been amateurishly 'repaired'.

Cheers,

R.
 
Debusti Paolo said:
yes it's an anticomar 75/2,8!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!and the best foldin camera is??????
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Look through this particular forum. You will find lots of comments on lots of different cameras. Personally I like the Welta folders of all types. They made some RF, so did many others, such as Zeiss, Ansco, Mamiya, Olympus, and others. Some of the lesser known and harder to get like the Mamiya and Olympus tend to be a little expensive.

Look around a check back here as others will no doubt tout their favorite RF or non-RF folder.
 
The best? Among ancient ones, where image quality is concerned, positively the Apo Lanthar Bessa II. But even that will not beat a Bessa III/GF670 or Makina 67(0).
 
sevo said:
The best? Among ancient ones, where image quality is concerned, positively the Apo Lanthar Bessa II. But even that will not beat a Bessa III/GF670 or Makina 67(0).
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how much does it costs?does it has a coupled rangefinder?do you know where to buy in europe?
 
Debusti Paolo said:
how much does it costs?does it has a coupled rangefinder?do you know where to buy in europe?
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Around 3000-5000€, being the folder collectors holy grail. Which puts it firmly out of user reach, as even a amount on the lower end would buy you a new Bessa III and still leave you with enough money to get a Makina 67 - two modern folders which are superior in just about every aspect, including optical performance.

The not that much lesser (but much more frequent) Color Heliar Bessa II is around 300-600€ - far more reasonable if you want to use the camera rather than put it into a vault.
 
Apo Lanthars are perhaps overrated: modern lenses have arguably surpassed what is, after all, a 60-year-old design. Yes, they're very nice lenses, but I replaced my 105 with a 100 Apo-Symmar (on a 'baby' Linhof) and I don't use my 150 much. I'd certainly go for a Makina 67 (the Japanese one, NOT the original) over a Bessa II/Apo Lanthar, first on performance, second on ergonomics, third on lens speed and focal length, regardless of price.

Cheers,

R.
 
I sold my Bessa II with Color Heliar in excellent condition last year for Euro 550. A lot of people in Hong Kong are after these cameras. I found this mid format camera to cumbersome to work with (it is quite huge and heavy), but beautifully crafted. There are some user cameras around but they are mostly equiped with the lesser Skopar lens.
Good look in finding yours....
 
I think some of you are being a bit unfair on these old 120 folders. For a relatively modest price <€500, even much less, you can have a robust mechanical 6x6 or 6x9 folder with a coated tessar or similar, which can give satisfactory results with a certain vintage look, especially in b&w. I appreciate this when travelling in places I don't want to leave or carry an expensive camera, like in a car glove-box or hotel room or in certain cities. I've tried all the well known folders and my favourites to use, for ergonomy, are the Agfa Super-Isolette and the Record III, and the later Super-Ikontas and Bessa II/Colour Heliar as praised above, although these can get pricey. But not as pricey, big or heavy as a Plaubel Makina 67 (and as pointed out by others, sadly not as good, but still with a very respectable performance). Lastly, I think many users of these old folders aren't doing it for ultimate performance, there is also a real pleasure in using quality vintage equipment sometimes.
 
chippy said:
here here! what a load of bollocks that they are overrated, no more overrated than saying a leica MP or or M9 is an reasonable tool for a given but limited situation...120 foldes are in fact perfect (if not the perfect tool) for many situations!!!...frankly it doesnt matter if the lens doesnt resolve down to the same lpm as a modern lens (all be it without the character that a vintage lens exudes), its the look of the final print, that creaminess, tonal range, charm, contrast and character that you get from a combination of a particular vintage lens and MF negative that is a virtue,,add to that a camera that is as compact as 35mm RF in many instances and you have a wonderful little machine...complaining and whining about the age or worn out status of a particular vintage unit is just a waste of time or sour grapes, what does one expect, of course there are units that are worn!! just as there are units that work perfectly as well...

its the person holding the camera that first sees and creates the image, the quality, compact size thats handy to carry anywhere, the sheer enjoyment that can help fire the imagination of the vintage folding 120 camera user, makes it an ideal tool to craft it with, or just enjoy photography with!!!...if 'you' cant handle the small view finder or the inevitable other small complaints that any camera has your just being a sook and a whinier, that cant adapt to the smallest inconvenience...get a life i say ;)
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What? A bigger waste of time than ranting that they're 'perfect' and that anyone who disagrees with you is a 'sook or a whiner'? And where do the 'sour grapes' come in? Do you deny that a lot of them ARE unergonomic, with squinty finders? Why do you refuse to accept that for some, these are not 'the smallest inconveniences'?

Forty years of playing with old folders has left me disappointed with the vast majority of them. I don't deny that some can produce excellent images, if you can live with their manifest and manifold disadvantages. But the breathless fury of your rant shows why someone needs to put the counter-view.

I've already got a life, thanks. I'd make a counter-suggestion: get a camera.

Cheers,

R.
 
You seem to be unable to distinguish 'whining' (= disagreeing with your viewpoint) from stating another point of view.

I have repeatedly said that SOME folders are great. I just think it's worth pointing out that while some (such as yourself) are madly in love with folders, they aren't for everyone. People can decide for themselves whether to believe you or me, and I have no problem with anyone who decides either way. Have you?

Or would you rather that people are only allowed to hear your near-hysterical praise? Because if I'm whining, you're sure as hell hysterical. All I'm trying to do is stop people wasting their money on cameras that are often the subject of overblown praise. If they decide I'm wrong, fine. What are you trying to do? And what if they decide you're wrong?

Cheers,

R.
 
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I love old folders....

I love the GF670/Bessa III and

I love my Leica's but

I love the old folders most off all.

Agfa Super Isolette (getting expensive now), Certo Six (weird focus lever), Balda Super Baldalux (fantastic with the Enagon f2.9 lens), Zeiss Super Ikonta (with a working light meter).

I don't have a Welta but these are also excellent folders.

Both Zeiss Super Ikonta with the internal meter.

4330060802_b6b1ff9b32_o.jpg



4329326443_a6f86a9505_o.jpg
 
chippy said:
so , in one breath you pretend that you like folders by qualifying that you say SOME folders are great, we both know that is hardly the case :rolleyes:..then in the other breath you postulate like some hysterical bull that it is down to whether people believe you, or, me, (cashing in the big chips already!) does the term narcissist reflect back in the mirror, what gall you entertain now..and to what end? so you alone will save everyone from the sheer entertainment of using a vintage folder, (all hail roger :angel:), or watse a few dollars, how kind you are to the poor masses that spend their money fruitlessly on cheap but productive photo equipement.....yet you dont mind advertising people spending mega thousands for a leica ..you wouldn't possibly see the more than double standard would you..

btw ..i would like to know when you heard near hysterical praise...get a life
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Are you named after the chip on your shoulder?

Why do you call me a liar for saying some folders are great? You seem to think you know my opinions better than I do. SOME are great. Most aren't.

Hysterical bull? I'm the one who suggests that people can make up their own minds. That's hysterical? Or bull?

You are descending to the level of personal insult. I suggested that IF I'm whining, then you're hysterical. You then get more hysterical and reiterate your pointless insult about 'get a life'.

You almost certainly won't bother to read the link, but if others are interested in my actual views on saving money, rather than what you think I believe, there's always: http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/ps save.html. Here's a quote from it:

Move up to roll-film, and unless you are planning on very big enlargements, almost any 'pro' camera and lenses from the last 50 years or so will do. For that matter, you may be surprised at the quality you can extract from even 'amateur' roll-film folders. With a big 6x9cm negative, after all, an 8x10 inch (203 x 254mm) borderless print is under a 4x enlargement, which does not make very great demands on the lens or film.

Here is a quote from another module, 'How many cameras do you need?' (http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/howmany.html

Finally, don't underrate the importance of such things as pride of ownership, enjoyability of use, and even pure snob value. The last can include 'reverse snob value'. If you can get good results out of a camera that most people regard as junk, it makes you feel good about yourself.

(Picture of Margate Sands, captioned)

Roger shot this on Ilford XP2 using a Soviet-era Zenith Photosniper (300/4.5 Tair 3 on Zenith E) for which he paid thirty quid (fifty bucks, forty-five euros) in a pawn shop. In printing (on Ilford Multigrade Warmtone, sepia-toned with home-made sulphide toner) he had to crop both extremities of the image because of shutter bounce and imperfect capping, which is why the image is printed from 24x30mm instead of 24x36mm. We would still have the camera today, except that a friend really, really wanted it, so we gave it to him. Besides, we have two other 300mm lenses, a 300/4 Pentacon and a 300/5.6 mirror lens. If you can get just a handful of pictures from 'junk' equipment like this, it justifies the price you paid for it.

No, I don't think I have a problem with narcissism, or double standards: you are believing what you want to believe about me, rather than reading what I write. I believe I am presenting at least as reasonable a viewpoint as yours. You don't agree with it, but that's your problem. Why should there be any narcissism involved in suggesting that others can make up their minds by reading both your posts and mine?

Finally, if you don't like a camera -- any camera, be it folder or anything else -- then it's a waste of money at any price. Not everyone is going to get the same enjoyment as you evidently do from using them. Why do you have such difficulty in accepting anyone else's viewpoint?

Cheers,

R.
 
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