Spoks
Well-known
This is indeed the point we are trying to make; there is no consumer market for a CS4 at $ 1,375. I am sure there is no market for the CS4 at this price level in the US either.
gnarayan
Gautham Narayan
I got your point.
Mine was that you might have better luck writing to their customer service department or retailers that carry their product and actually trying to organize something useful.
What did you think you were going to achieve ranting on RFF.
For what its worth, I use the GIMP and RawTherapee. Avoid piracy, complaints about the price and does what I need.
NickTrop
Veteran
Not from a product mark-up standpoint. If I want something and it's only made in X country, and that's the only game in town, a variable portion of my mark up will go to "economic rent".... Pricing is about "what the market will bear"... if "what the market will bear" is greater in the European market than it is in the US market... that's the price.
Perhaps a better example are DVDs and the whole "region" thing. DVDs cost pennies to produce, the US consumer pays $20-ish per title for major releases domestically. China is a huge market but they ain't spending a week's worth of wages in their economy on a DVD, so in their region the same exact DVD I paid $20 US for cost the Chinese $1.50, or whatever.
The intitial post suggests Adobe is treating the Europeans unfairly or is discriminating. Far be it from me to defend any SW giant, but in this case it's just not true. This kind of thing goes on all the time, pricing discrepencies - some rather significant, always exist between domestic product and import items for a variety of reasons, some political. You pay more for US software, we pay more for your _____ product. It's about what price a market will bare, business is business... If Adobe would increase revenue by lowering price in Europe, -snap- they'd do it in a heartbeat. Wanna lower Adobe's price? Quit buying their software. Watch the price sink like a rock.
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Jamie123
Veteran
It's not that simple. Adobe is the leader by a long run in its market segment. It is THE standard for imaging software in the creative field and as such it has a quasi monopoly. For most people working in this field not using Adobe products simply isn't an option as there's no real competition around. I'd venture to say that the could even double the price tomorrow and a lot of people would still buy it because they have to.
This pseudo free market argument "it's about what the market will bare" is way too simplistic. This only works when there is real competition. That's why we (at least in my country) have government agencies whose job it is to prevent the formation of cartels that artificially keep the prices high just because the market will pay anything they ask.
Now I'm in no way suggesting that this is the case with Adobe or that the government should intervene in their price policy but I'm saying that such a simplistic view of "the market" as is often presented by many politicians just doesn't cut it. The market's more complex than that.
What should one do about Adobe's high price discrepancies? Just not buy their products and shut up? I say no. I say make some noise, rant all you want, tell your friends about it. If enough people do it it may reach the point where they have to spend more on marketing to counteract the bad press than what they're making by keeping the prices high.
user237428934
User deletion pending
The Adobe online store for Europe is ridiculous. You have two options. Download or getting the software package via mail. If I download the software I pay 21% VAT because the download server is located in Ireland, even if VAT in Germany is 19%. If I choose the mail option I pay 10 or 20 EUR shipping cost. So there is no way to get the price I would pay in a store.
But tell me the alternatives? If you need all this highend stuff, there is none. In the middle segment where PSE plays, there are a lot of alternatives but I still like PSE best.
But tell me the alternatives? If you need all this highend stuff, there is none. In the middle segment where PSE plays, there are a lot of alternatives but I still like PSE best.
wgerrard
Veteran
I think that's probably the case, within reason, for legitimate professionals, i.e., someone whose income is dependent on using Photoshop and who can write off a higher price and/or pass it along to customers.
The full version of Photoshop is not an amateur product, even if they gave it away. It makes too many assumptions about the experience and knowledge of the user. A package intended for amateur photo tweakers would include "click here to make the colors better"-style capability, which is exactly what PSE offers.
I agree with that. When one or a small number of companies dominate a market, they become resistant to pressure to lower prices, and can obviously collude to keep prices high.
Well, I don't think complaining about Adobe's prices is going to lower their prices. If they spend more on marketing to counter the complaints, that just increases their costs, which they will likely pass along to customers. Not buying their products might have an impact, if their sales in an individual country are enough to merit their concern.
Olsen
Well-known
My conclusion is that while the camera producers have been very fast at adjusting to the new reality of consumers 'buying where it is cheaper', Adobe still lives in a world where they think they can charge 30% more for the same product depending on 'what country'. They will, I am sure, prosper from changing their price policy to the same as that of Canon and Nikon. That simple.
Spoks
Well-known
It is not true what you are claiming. Look up the prices of Canon 5D II or Nikon D70 around the world. Any difference can be explained by taxation or currency fluctuations. A Canon 5D II cost practically the same all over the world, tax free. If any large difference appear, like under the big dollar crash of 2008, customers will soon find that out and pick up the advantage. Like what many European photo gear customers did back in late 2008. They picked up a ticket to New York, they still go for about $ 1,000, and bought enough photo gear to save more than $ 2,000.
This is what is happening with Adobe CS4 too. Companies and professional users might still buy CS4 at $ 1,100 tax free here in Norway. But advanced amateurs buy them overseas (NY, Abu Dabi, Canary Islands, Hong Kong etc.) for $ 600 tax free. Their alternative is buying them in Norway - included VAT, for $ 1,375. I am sure, quite a few professionals, like lone professional photographers, do also buy them overseas for $ 600.
Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
Even with download, one has to consider the cost of the server farm where the files come from. There is cost of the hardware, the OS license on the servers, rent or mortgage on the building, not to mention employee costs.
True, a software based distribution system will lead to cheaper product than mailing boxes around. I'm betting iTunes makes more per song at 99 cents than when I bought a vinyl 45RPM record back in the day for $1.29 or whatever, but I thought your assumption in the message I replied ignored many of the expenses incurred by Adobe. I'd like to look at their financials, but I'm too lazy to do so. The idea that testing costs ends when CS4 is released for example, would assume that these resources aren't maybe starting work on CS5 or Elements9, or whatever the next product in the pipeline may be.
I do agree with the OP that I'd be offended if I paid more for any product than cost of product elsewhere plus applicable taxes.
As for your testing and version questions, they are good ones, but I have no idea how to answer them, except that I'm sure a US version run on a computer in France will work just fine.
nonot
Well-known
The prices of many software products are different all over the world but so are things like import and distribution taxes for doing business in any given country. Adobe no doubt employs people somewhere in Europe and that costs them a certain amount of money, probably more than what it does per person in the USA. There's many issues at work that determine the final price you purchase something at, it's not all Adobe being predatory and thinking they can swing one over on the Euros. But I'd take it to them and ask directly "why?" if you're a potential customer, they owe this much to you to explain it, and if it sounds like a fabrication then it probably is... move on and support someone else.
Having made my living with adobe products for some time I'll fully admit to having used pirated software of theirs for years. I was a student putting myself through school and I simply couldn't afford it even at the educational discounts... that being said I now own pretty much all of their products, with multiple user licenses and think their software is well worth the money. Once I started charging people for my output I figured it fair to pay them for theirs.
Having made my living with adobe products for some time I'll fully admit to having used pirated software of theirs for years. I was a student putting myself through school and I simply couldn't afford it even at the educational discounts... that being said I now own pretty much all of their products, with multiple user licenses and think their software is well worth the money. Once I started charging people for my output I figured it fair to pay them for theirs.
clachnacuddin
Established
I think the comparison goes together quite well...I know the work I do on Photoshop improves greatly after a few glasses of wine!
Spoks
Well-known
The VAT, but also the event of internet, has changed the photo business drastically. But also the jewels, expensive watches - anything compact & expensive that can be transported easily. These products you don't buy back home here in Europe anymore. A hefty VAT is common in most European countries. In Germany 19% of the sales price is VAT. 21% in Ireland, 20% in Norway, Sweden and Finland - and so on. Most likely, USA will have to introduce some kind of VAT in the future. I see this is being discussed on Bloomberg TV and so on. Then you will see the advantages of going to tax free havens.
Spoks
Well-known
I agree.
It is in countries like the Scandinavian countries, Ireland, Germany, Italy etc - with consumers with a high purchasing power and a relatively large community of semi pro/advanced amateurs that well could fall for a time limited campaign with favourable prices of CS4. Pro users, many of whom are willing to pay the $ 1,100 regardless, will not hop on such campaign offers. This because purchases are tied to budgets and investment decisions, an so on. While an amateur/semi pro on a consumer-like budget would certainly take the advantage of a favourable offer.
JPSuisse
Well-known
One poster asked why somebody who buys expensive cameras won't pay for software... Actually there are good reasons:
1.) A good film camera does not require me to purchase an update every 3 years when I change operating systems! I bought CS and shortly upgraded to Tiger 10.4. Acrobat never did work properly again.... Now, who's ripping whom off here!?
2.) My film camera does not collect information about me and require data to be sent to the manufacturer to "reactivate" what I purchased. Why should I pay for an invasion of privacy?
3.) I'm using a Lightroom 2 now, but since Adobe won't support PPC processors anymore, I'm changing to Bibble 5 now that it supports the M8. Here, software companies are working together to force this continual cycle of upgrades down my throat! Alas, the Captialist business model at it's best.
Actually, in my view, software is much less valuable than hardware from a customer point of view, because REAL hardware should last without having to pay for updates...
Grrr.
JP
1.) A good film camera does not require me to purchase an update every 3 years when I change operating systems! I bought CS and shortly upgraded to Tiger 10.4. Acrobat never did work properly again.... Now, who's ripping whom off here!?
2.) My film camera does not collect information about me and require data to be sent to the manufacturer to "reactivate" what I purchased. Why should I pay for an invasion of privacy?
3.) I'm using a Lightroom 2 now, but since Adobe won't support PPC processors anymore, I'm changing to Bibble 5 now that it supports the M8. Here, software companies are working together to force this continual cycle of upgrades down my throat! Alas, the Captialist business model at it's best.
Actually, in my view, software is much less valuable than hardware from a customer point of view, because REAL hardware should last without having to pay for updates...
Grrr.
JP
NickTrop
Veteran
Disagree on two points. It is what the market will bare. In fact, you have it backwards. The more competition exists, the less it's about "what the market will bare" and the more it's about price equilibrium. For example, commodity items - wheat for instance. The market may "bare" twice or three times the cost per bushel. However, because it's a commodity item with lots of farmers producing wheat, supply drives every person to the same price per bushel - the farmer has "zero" influence on the price of his produce - even if the market will "bare" a higher prince.
In a monopoly - and I disagree completely that Adobe has a "monopoly" on image editing SW at all but I'll play along, they could charge $100,000 per license but they would find themselves soon out of business. What price do they charge? The highest price the market will bare.
Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
You do know that the only reason you need to upgrade the hardware is that software designers will eventually write some bloated code that will require you to upgrade, after it sucks up every CPU cycle you have and then some, right?
Yes, I'm sort of kiddng, but my older desktop, which ran fine when I bought it, now has trouble keeping up when both McAfee and MicroSoft go on the web to get their updates at the same time. I blame Bill Gates...
Spoks
Well-known
Sure, if we try to define "what is really necessary" in our little semi pro/advanced amateur photo world we end up with a pin hole camera and Wall Mart processing. The software part of photography is just as important as the camera itself today.
Spoks
Well-known
Sorry, but no, I don't believe that is true. As Olsen said: We can drop the language part; we talk of English versions only, we can drop the tax part [we talk of tax free prices]. Which leaves us with 'nothing' substantial as arguments to why a CS4 should cost 30% [actually 83% - $ 500] more than in USA. We Norwegian amateurs have to direct our technical questions, in English, to USA. So, what European field support...?
wgerrard
Veteran
I qualified my statement about what amateurs need. And the usefulness of pirating PS when you don't use a camera escapes me.
Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
No sales taxes where I live,, but they do take more in income taxes than the three surrounding states...
Many people seem to like the "free" government goodies paid for by others.
And I'm with those who say that one should use open software rather than pirate commercial products.